Not managing to load film properly - M-A

[RobM]

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The M-A has the same mechanism for loading film as the M6, as seen here:

 

https://youtu.be/NnXb-SndzsI

 

At first it seems easy, but getting the teeth to take up the film holes can be fiddly. I've seen the film advance when I turn the film-advance lever, but without the film rewind knob turning. I can't figure out why that is so. So I try again, and after two or three attempts I can get it all working properly, but can't see what I am doing differently. Either I have not found "the knack", or the mechanism is not as perfect as it should be. My money's on the former!

 

To be clear, I can load the film, and get the teeth going into the holes in the film, and when I turn the film-advance lever the film moves as it should, however the film rewind knob does not move - sometimes. My understanding is that the rotation of the film rewind knob is an indication that the film is loaded correctly.

 

I've only put two films through it so far, and with both films I had to start again by rewinding the film and starting again, giving me a double-exposed first shot (though that was not uninteresting!). Any tips/advice?

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by RobM

[Steve Ricoh]

That's basically the way I load my M6, then I apply slight tension using the rewind crank to confirm the film is advancing as I advance.

Not having an M-A, I can't say whether it's necessary to raise the rewind knob to pre-tension the film (Y/N ?). I mention this because I've seen pictures of M-As (and MPs too) with add-on cranks, and without lifting the knob, complete with crank, it would resist film transport. 

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[Mute-on]

On my MP it will only start turning the rewind knob after advancing at least two frames. I don’t pre tension. It’s just the slack in the new film that is taken up after a few frames. 
 

I wouldn’t reload after 3 frames (the first two are wasted anyway to get to frame 1 on the counter). If you get to 4 or 5 and the rewind knob is not showing film advance, you have a problem. 

[vinicio]

When you uploaded the film just create a tension using the rewind knob and then use one or two frames to be sure your film is well locked.

if you practice a bit, you could have up to 38 shots from a single roll

[adan]

Film in the casette from the factory usually has quite a bit of slack. It doesn't fill the casette tight to the outer casing (to avoid scratches, among other things) and it is springy, like a watch spring that is only partially wound. In other words, not tightly coiled.

So as others have said, several frames may wind out of the casette before that slack is taken up, and until that happens, the slack means the film won't be pulling on the cassette spool, and the rewind knob will not turn, even though film is moving correctly.

_________________

When I first started using Leica Ms in 2001, I was overly OCD about keeping the back open and trying to make sure (even with fingertips) that the film holes connected to the sprocket teeth and so on.

THAT WAS A MISTAKE!

I eventually found this antique-but-still-applicable web page, and once I start following the technique listed there unfailingly, all my problems went away and I never had a Leica M misload again.

https://leica.nemeng.com/000b.shtml

The key takeaways:

1) Trust that Leica's engineers knew what they were doing when they designed the autoload system in the MP and M-A (and all M's back to the M4 and M2-R). Don't try to second-guess the system.

2) In particular, don't keep the camera back or bottom plate open while winding "just to see" if the teeth engage the film. There is a plastic funnel-shaped thingy (or "rose," as those instructions call it) on the base-plate that WILL push the film into alignment with the sprocket teeth perfectly - but only if the camera has been closed and the bottom plate installed and locked.

3) Load the film, close the camera up completely and wind ONE frame to get the film firmly attached to the take-up fork. Then - and only then - and only if you want to - back-wind the film with the rewind crank/knob to take up any slack. And then wind on to frame 1, while checking that the rewind knob is turning.

We understand that Leica users are, by definition, OCD perfectionists and control-freaks. However, loading film into a post-1968 film M is one place where one has to let that go, and just trust the rapid-load automation to do its thing without over-supervising.

Edited December 14, 2019 by adan

[RobM]

Ah, Trust the Force! I get it. Next time, I'll know what to do. Thanks.

[harmen]

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I usually tighten the film before putting it into the camera.  Just be careful not to wind it all the way in.

[oldwino]

I used to put a little (1/4” / 1cm) backwards kink on the end of the film, and then slip that into the tulip (or is it a rose?). Never had a failure after I started doing that. 

[Frase]

I fold the film up a bit as well but also just keep the back open for the first couple of frames.

[RobM]

Well, I'm not so embarrassed now about not getting it right first or second time. It seems everyone has a method, some contradicting what others say and do. Considering the price of the M-A (even at the 2nd-hand price I paid) one might be led to expect that Leica would leave somewhere in this universe instructions on how to do it properly. The drawing on the base of the camera is not showing us the whole story. Still, that's part of the "charm" of the Leica brand, I suppose. 🤔🙄😎

[250swb]

19 minutes ago, RobM said:

Well, I'm not so embarrassed now about not getting it right first or second time. It seems everyone has a method, some contradicting what others say and do. Considering the price of the M-A (even at the 2nd-hand price I paid) one might be led to expect that Leica would leave somewhere in this universe instructions on how to do it properly. The drawing on the base of the camera is not showing us the whole story. Still, that's part of the "charm" of the Leica brand, I suppose. 🤔🙄😎

You were doing it right and Leica don't need to give any further advice. After engaging the film and winding it on a couple of frames you've done it, the winding it back into the cassette part to give it some tension is an embellishment to the process, not the process. 

[RobM]

I disagree. I failed to get the rewind knob turning each time, and had to start over again. Leica should give help, judging by the number of responses here from Leica enthusiasts who had to find ways to load the film successfully each time. The machine might well be perfect, but if it is user error that is to blame, a little help from the humans at Leica would be useful. 

[a.noctilux]

Rob, M-A is not perfect ( is it possible that human made things can be perfect ? ).

Over time, you would discover other weird things in M-A (or other devices) 😉.

I take those things as normal as we (meaning me of course) are not perfect.

For me, M-A bought in 2014 is kind of miraculous time machine.

Never hope/dream of new M4 (or M4-P, M2) just out of factory with newer materials and technologies.

[RobM]

Oh, I've no problem with the camera other than loading film, which hopefully is now sorted - I'll have to wait until the current roll (ten shots so far) is finished before trying again. I love the camera dearly, and the images make me very happy. It's the best film camera I've ever had, and I've had a few! 

[250swb]

8 hours ago, RobM said:

I disagree. I failed to get the rewind knob turning each time, and had to start over again.

But you didn't need to get the rewind knob turning in the first place if you've loaded the film properly at the other end.

Seeing the centre two dots of the rewind knob turning is something that has been unofficial aftermarket advice for many, many years and is a precaution for not loading the film properly in the first place, such as if you are in a hurry, the photographer is being parsimonious with the film, or if the photographer isn't following the much better advice of watching while winding an extra couple of frames onto the tulip. Sure watching the two little dots turn is added insurance if you are intrinsically or temporarily fat fingered, but for speed and ultimate security wasting a couple of frames is the sensible choice with any film camera. Film is still cheap, missing a photograph while faffing about doing a street art performance in camera loading will make you think it is cheaper still.

[01af]

To see how to load a Leica M properly, see this video by kissb4die (duration 0:21; mute the sound, there's no words anyway, just background noise).

If you follow this procedure, you'll get 38 frames per 135-36 roll consistently, numbered from 0 to 37.

[RobM]

Exactly, he lifts and turns the rewind knob once the back is closed and the base fitted. A good few of the above posts suggest that. Post #5 has a variation on it. But none of this comes from Leica, at least not that I'm aware of, hence my wish that they would mention it, but member 250swb thinks otherwise. Fair enough. Like most people here, I will find a way that works for me. I appreciate all the comments.

[Frase]

Just wind it on a couple of frames while the camera back is still open, my M4 will never load as easily as the video 01af just posted everything is too worn and that why I also put a fold in the end of the film is wind the film on a couple of frames.

Here is a better video 

 

[RobM]

And there's another way. Cheers. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

If not done, we can have the pdf of M-A's instruction here from Leica website

I had a look at page 36-37 for loading film, that is the way not to have trouble with film loading "Leica way".

Including important warning ...