Leica 21mm View Finder 12024

[RayD28]

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Anyone here have one?  How does it compare to the newer but used plastic models.  I notice they do not have the hotshoe lock which I like on my 28mm viewfinder.  Any and all input appreciated.  

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[Pyrogallol]

I have the older version Leitz 21mm finder and the modern Voigtlander one.

i just compared them and the Leitz one has some barrel distortion and is a bit less bright than the Voigtlander, which has a frame line which the Leitz does not. The latest Leitz finder may be better than my older one.

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[Stein K S]

I do not know the Leica 21 in metal, but I have the Leica 24 in metal. And also the 21-25 round CV in metal and the Zeiss 21 in metal. And in short my overall judgement is that the Leica 24 wins the «design» contest, while both of the others actually are the better view finders for my use. The Zeiss being by far the brighest & biggest picture view finder.  I know about different «faulties» (alignement etc) with the non Leica brands, but I find non of these view finders to be particularly accurate anyway... so I judge them all by quality of view (size and light).

Edited December 7, 2019 by Stein K S

[ckuwajima]

35 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have the older version Leitz 21mm finder and the modern Voigtlander one.

i just compared them and the Leitz one has some barrel distortion and is a bit less bright than the Voigtlander, which has a frame line which the Leitz does not. The latest Leitz finder may be better than my older one.

 

My metal Leitz 21mm also has some barrel distortion, but has frame line.

I also have a modern Voigtlander finder, which I prefer: it is brighter and shows a bit more outside the frame line compared to Leitz.

[sblutter]

The Voightlander 21 is fine

[adan]

One point about the 12024 is that it has framelines for both FF, and the 1.3x M8 crop (= "28mm"). Which means it is effectively two finders for the price of one (IF one uses both 21 and 28 lenses) and it is a much easier-to-see 28 finder than the built--in M lines, and gives a better sense of the "wide-angle-perspective" of a 28. That two-for-one almost makes the outrageous new prices acceptable.

I keep kicking myself because Tamarkin had a pair of used 12024/5s (black and silver, to match my two M10s) for less-than-half-price a year or so ago, and I kept procrastinating and they sold before I could snag them.

As to the foot on the plastic finders - it's glued-together plastic (you know, like a child's toy) and I have had three come apart over 18 years, and a fourth one failing now (tilting randomly front to back or side-to-side, and because the plastic lock is now also weak, it fell off my M10 about 7 times during a trip last winter, disappearing into the recesses of buses, boats, and very nearly the Caribbean). Super-Glue™ repairs last about 2 weeks, and it is currently wedged into my camera shoe with black photo tape. It'll get replaced permanently in about a week (see below) and I'll never use any plastic finder again.

The metal versions have thin slits cut in the foot about 1mm from the edges, to make the foot sides springy and grip the sides of the camera shoe. The side-friction can be increased by inserting the tip of a fine screwdriver blade into the slits and "spreading" them a bit. I have never had a metal Leitz/Leica 21 or 28 finder pop out once adjusted that way for tight fit.

Plus, the metal finders are noticeably more compact and less likely to snag on surroundings or camera bags. (The rounded C/V plastic finders are also OK in that regard - but the feet still fall apart eventually).

Just ordered a SBKOO 1960s Leitz metal 21 finder cheap (same basic optics, older coatings) - I'll either find another one cheap eventually and black-tape the outside for my black camera, or eventually run across another used 12024.

[james.liam]

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I’ve got the Zeiss. Bright, minimal if any distortion and big. As mentioned above, none of them are particularly accurate.

I also procrastinated on the 21 Tamarkin had! Gone by the time I looked again. 

[RayD28]

54 minutes ago, james.liam said:

I’ve got the Zeiss. Bright, minimal if any distortion and big. As mentioned above, none of them are particularly accurate.

I also procrastinated on the 21 Tamarkin had! Gone by the time I looked again. 

 

1 hour ago, adan said:

One point about the 12024 is that it has framelines for both FF, and the 1.3x M8 crop (= "28mm"). Which means it is effectively two finders for the price of one (IF one uses both 21 and 28 lenses) and it is a much easier-to-see 28 finder than the built--in M lines, and gives a better sense of the "wide-angle-perspective" of a 28. That two-for-one almost makes the outrageous new prices acceptable.

I keep kicking myself because Tamarkin had a pair of used 12024/5s (black and silver, to match my two M10s) for less-than-half-price a year or so ago, and I kept procrastinating and they sold before I could snag them.

As to the foot on the plastic finders - it's glued-together plastic (you know, like a child's toy) and I have had three come apart over 18 years, and a fourth one failing now (tilting randomly front to back or side-to-side, and because the plastic lock is now also weak, it fell off my M10 about 7 times during a trip last winter, disappearing into the recesses of buses, boats, and very nearly the Caribbean). Super-Glue™ repairs last about 2 weeks, and it is currently wedged into my camera shoe with black photo tape. It'll get replaced permanently in about a week (see below) and I'll never use any plastic finder again.

The metal versions have thin slits cut in the foot about 1mm from the edges, to make the foot sides springy and grip the sides of the camera shoe. The side-friction can be increased by inserting the tip of a fine screwdriver blade into the slits and "spreading" them a bit. I have never had a metal Leitz/Leica 21 or 28 finder pop out once adjusted that way for tight fit.

Plus, the metal finders are noticeably more compact and less likely to snag on surroundings or camera bags. (The rounded C/V plastic finders are also OK in that regard - but the feet still fall apart eventually).

Just ordered a SBKOO 1960s Leitz metal 21 finder cheap (same basic optics, older coatings) - I'll either find another one cheap eventually and black-tape the outside for my black camera, or eventually run across another used 12024.

The inspiration for this thread is tamarkin has a 21 SEM AND a 12024 at what seems like a great price.  Somebody please buy them and remove this temptation. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by RayD28

[farnz]

I have the Zeiss and agree that it's astonishingly bright compared to the others.  

I recall a thread here some years ago where it was said that the placement of the hot-shoe on the Zeiss Ikon is in a slightly different position to Leica's hot-shoe and it was claimed that the Zeiss would give less accurate framing because it's looking in slightly the wrong direction. It's not something that I've ever noticed but if one is fastidious about such things it's as well to be aware.

Pete.

[MarkP]

You're right Pete, Menos and I discussed this in detail 2011...

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/167741-which-21mm-finder-a-comparison/?tab=comments#comment-1860803

 

 

[farnz]

1 hour ago, MarkP said:

You're right Pete, Menos and I discussed this in detail 2011...

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/167741-which-21mm-finder-a-comparison/?tab=comments#comment-1860803

 

 

Thanks, Mark.

I haven't seen Dirk around these hallowed halls for some time so I hope he's okay and just pursuing other interests ...

I'd forgotten about the (rare) Hexanon 21/35 finder and how good it is.  Unfortunately mine languishes in the 21/35's box these days since the M10 has a usable EVF.  (Note to self: get out and shoot some more film with the 21/35 Dual M-Hexanon!)

Pete.

[MarkP]

1 hour ago, farnz said:

Thanks, Mark.

I haven't seen Dirk around these hallowed halls for some time so I hope he's okay and just pursuing other interests ...

I'd forgotten about the (rare) Hexanon 21/35 finder and how good it is.  Unfortunately mine languishes in the 21/35's box these days since the M10 has a usable EVF.  (Note to self: get out and shoot some more film with the 21/35 Dual M-Hexanon!)

Pete.

Tempting lens that Dual-Hexanon.

The EVF on the M10 has also reduced my use of external OVFs.  I still use the 21, as Adan wrote it also covers 28mm, and I’ve worked out how to frame for 24mm.

[digger1914]

I have this finder, and would have loved there to have been a sale on when I got it!  I have managed to knock it off the camera (M10-P) twice, so I am very careful with it now.  It does function perfectly (should for the cost!) and doesn't hoover the battery up like the Visoflex does.

[250swb]

On 12/7/2019 at 4:25 PM, Pyrogallol said:

 

i just compared them and the Leitz one has some barrel distortion 

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At 21mm the only job the finder can do, or indeed needs to do, is show you where the edges of the frame are. Distortion is irrelevant, it doesn't translate itself to the lens and so no matter how much knee bending you do to avoid weird perspectives you have to accept the same leap of faith you need with any lens mounted on a rangefinder camera, the viewfinder image (of any type) isn't exactly what the lens is seeing. So keep hold of the cheapest and best bang for buck, the Voigtlander 21mm finder. It is bright, much nicer to look through than the newer plastic Leica finder, it is comparatively a bargain, but like any other finder it is a sideshow compared with what the lens itself is doing, in which case the only solution to obtain accuracy is digital and using Live View.

Edited December 8, 2019 by 250swb

[james.liam]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

At 21mm the only job the finder can do, or indeed needs to do, is show you where the edges of the frame are. Distortion is irrelevant, it doesn't translate itself to the lens and so no matter how much knee bending you do to avoid weird perspectives you have to accept the same leap of faith you need with any lens mounted on a rangefinder camera, the viewfinder image (of any type) isn't exactly what the lens is seeing. So keep hold of the cheapest and best bang for buck, the Voigtlander 21mm finder. It is bright, much nicer to look through than the newer plastic Leica finder, it is comparatively a bargain, but like any other finder it is a sideshow compared with what the lens itself is doing, in which case the only solution to obtain accuracy is digital and using Live View.

I don't fully agree.

Unless you're shooting static landscapes or are a pro pre-visualizing closer subjects, distortion adds a further complication to properly framing a scene. The Zeiss viewfinder, although with its own issues, allows you to have a better orientation of the subjects to be photographed. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by james.liam

[RayD28]

17 hours ago, MarkP said:

You're right Pete, Menos and I discussed this in detail 2011...

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/167741-which-21mm-finder-a-comparison/?tab=comments#comment-1860803

 

 

Mark, thanks for posting the reference.  Good information and answered my question.  

[MarkP]

11 hours ago, digger1914 said:

I have this finder, and would have loved there to have been a sale on when I got it!  I have managed to knock it off the camera (M10-P) twice, so I am very careful with it now.  It does function perfectly (should for the cost!) and doesn't hoover the battery up like the Visoflex does.

As Andy mentioned, put a fine screwdriver into the slot on the shoe and expand the shoe. Very effective but it is easy to overdo it so start with very small adjustments!

[Pyrogallol]

If you’re using an early screw body without the spring grips in the accessory shoe, just use a small scrap of paper between the camera and finder to tighten the grip. It probably works just as well with more modern camera bodies.

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Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

20 hours ago, digger1914 said:

I have managed to knock it off the camera (M10-P) twice, so I am very careful with it now.

I have one too. Works fine and I have no complaints. A bit of Gaffer Tape underneath stops it falling off. Mine is brassing at the edges.

[digger1914]

11 hours ago, MarkP said:

As Andy mentioned, put a fine screwdriver into the slot on the shoe and expand the shoe. Very effective but it is easy to overdo it so start with very small adjustments!

I will give that go Mark.  Thaks