Lines on negatives - Leica iiia

[Anbaric]

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4 hours ago, paulmac said:

Leica must have recognised this problem and with the 111F and 111G they fitted a metal tongue on the baseplate to PUSH the film always into the correct register.

Maybe it's just MY camera then BUT as I have always said and experienced MY 111A ALWAYS gives BLACK lines when used with a modern cassette.

I have not seen black lines with a IIIa or a IIIc, both of which lack the 'tongue' on the baseplate, and I've never used a FILCA. Perhaps there is some particular issue with your camera that is exacerbated by modern cassettes? Have you seen this problem with any other Leica, or heard of anyone who has? I'm not sure it's the same thing as the film slipping down to show the sprockets in the frame (but that hasn't happened to me either). Disposable cassettes were made in the IIIa era by the major film companies, and are mentioned in the original camera manual. I assume they used felt light traps (as now) rather than the FILCA's unlocking mechanism, but I don't know whether they were any larger than modern cassettes.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Anbaric

[250swb]

I can't think of any reason why the type of cassette could produce black lines on the film other than post or pre-exposure by light leaking into the cassette (this can happen with re-usable modern cassettes that are just too old). It often manifests itself nearer frame #1. 

The lines are diffused so not likely to be holes in the shutter or frayed curtains. I think this is a processing problem and most likely dirty rollers in the machine. If one roller has a spot of contamination on it this could be roughly checked by laying both rolls of film out side by side and see if the faults occur a similar distance apart, if more than one roller is contaminated it becomes more variable because you don't know if both rollers are of the same diameter. The question is 'does the lab process a lot of B&W film and regularly clean the machine?'

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[Ibanez]

3 hours ago, paulmac said:

Absolutely 100% agree and I believe it to be the answer to the issue that he OP is having - the cassette issue that I have described is totally different as the lines are defined black tramlines and not as shown in your's and the OP's example.

However what I describe is one to bear in mind for members who maybe facing a similar issue with their 111a and may be of use when all else has failed!

 

Thank you all, I shall send my next roll to be developed at another lab.

[Pyrogallol]

6 hours ago, paulmac said:

I agree that in this case the image faults do indeed appear to have been caused by a processing error I do however stand by what I have said about cassettes - simply because this has been my honest experience with my own 111A.

I think that there are several faults that could cause this issue and I have described what to me was a totally ridiculous and obscure solution to a problem with my camera that was making it unusable - it may not be a common fault but is one to bear in mind. I was on the verge of giving up on my 111A when I discovered by accident that the use of the FILCA cassette totally eliminated all my problems.

There is a lot of scepticism regarding my findings and that is understandable BUT let me say this :- I understand film photography it is and has been my main way in working in photography for forty years and I would not have posted this issue if I didn't believe it to be correct and a possible solution to the fault and something that totally cured the fault that MY camera was exhibiting.

Members please take from it what you will - it's just my experience of BLACK line issues on my 111A and if you have (as I did) searched and discounted every other possibility then just maybe what I have described could be the solution to the problem!

If you have found the solution to your problem then good, stick to it. Other people’s similar problems may have other causes and solutions.

[Stacey]

I want to thank the posters for the info about using a FILCA. I noticed with my IIIc the film just didn't seem to fit quite right and was hard to get the sprocket holes to align with the cogs in the camera. It makes sense now and while in a pinch I wouldn't hesitate to use a modern roll, the ingenuity behind the FILCA, the way the camera latch opens the window etc will add to the enjoyment of using my screw mount Leicas.

I also learned about the AFLOO film winder, which seems like a nice vintage way of loading these in the darkroom. What years were these made?

[250swb]

12 hours ago, paulmac said:

There is a lot of scepticism regarding my findings and that is understandable BUT let me say this :- I understand film photography it is and has been my main way in working in photography for forty years and I would not have posted this issue if I didn't believe it to be correct and a possible solution to the fault and something that totally cured the fault that MY camera was exhibiting.

 

I think that perhaps you need to come up with a reasonable reason for streaks to occur if the cassette is the cause and not perhaps conflate it with other possible and coincidental issues. The whole process of analysing problems with film faults is to not assume anything and one by one eliminate potential causes. So for example never assume light leaks are the cause of streaks if you've also just changed the type of developer. Don't assume scratches on negatives are the camera if you've just changed how you dry the film, etc.

So, the OP says the streaks are intermittent, how will the cassette cause intermittent streaks and what is the physical connection between the tin that holds the film and streaks? With a modern cassette you have a permanent felt light trap, with the Leica cassette you open up the trap door. In either case where are processing or exposure streaks coming from? Well ok, the OP is declining to tell us much but those streaks would commonly be called under exposure or under processing, so light leaks are out of the question aren't they? Which kind of rules out the cassette, because after it leaves the cassette the film is in the hands of other parts of the camera and subsequent processing, no?

[Ibanez]

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Hi

I can confirm that I have been using modern cassettes only (ilford HP5 and Delta). I have not used FILCA cassettes yet. I send the negs off to a lab, so unfortunately I can't give much more information, as the lab does the developing. I requested both rolls to be developed at ISO 800. The streaks only occur on 3/4 frames of a 36 exposure roll of film.

If there's any further information I can provide, please let me know!

 

Ibanez

[Reini]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Ibanez:

The streaks only occur on 3/4 frames of a 36 exposure roll of film

How can the development be blamed, if then only 3-4. ..a few pictures have stripes?

Definitely interesting this topic. I'm curious if we research this problem.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Reini

[Guest]

Do collectors value a (LTM) camera higher when there is a very recent film (and resulting pictures) taken with it?

I have 2 IIIg with Leicavits as old as I am with the modern 35Asph and 50 Summicrons, that function like clockwork and never ventured towards older models.

[romualdo]

1 hour ago, Ibanez said:

Hi

I can confirm that I have been using modern cassettes only (ilford HP5 and Delta). I have not used FILCA cassettes yet. I send the negs off to a lab, so unfortunately I can't give much more information, as the lab does the developing. I requested both rolls to be developed at ISO 800. The streaks only occur on 3/4 frames of a 36 exposure roll of film.

If there's any further information I can provide, please let me know!

 

Ibanez

As with my IIIg & Tri-X (modern cassette) - only 2 frames out of 36 affected & both were at high speed ie 1000th sec - see my earlier post

[frame-it]

interesting thread..which led me to this

https://www.richardphotolab.com/blog/post/common-film-scan-issues-and-what-you-can-do-about-them

 

[Kleinkamera]

I use the FILCA and IXMOO cassettes almost exclusively in a few different screwmount bodies, and prefer them as of course I am very familiar with the issue of the film running through at a slight angle when using modern, pre-loaded cassettes. And I've had streaks appear a few times, looking very similar to Ibanez's results. But I have never been able to connect such streaks to the use of one type of cassette or another. However, they did disappear after curtain cleaning (or replacement) during routine service.

Ibanez, when shooting your next roll you should carefully note each exposure's details. Dedicate a roll just to this purpose.  In each frame include a lot of open sky or similar, so as to be able to easily see streaks. Make sure to go through all the normal speeds (i.e., not the slow speeds set with the slow speed dial). For example, shoot the same scene repeatedly, changing the shutter and aperture each time to give the same exposure, etc. For every single frame make a note of the shutter speed used. I've done this and it often revealed a correlation between the streaky frames and - almost always - the highest 1 or 2 shutter speeds.

James

Edited December 3, 2019 by Kleinkamera
clarification

[Geoff Marshall]

On 11/30/2019 at 9:14 PM, Ibanez said:

Hi all 

 

so I recently purchased a Leica iiia and an Elmar 5cm 3.5. For a camera that is nearly 90 years old, it is in great condition. 

I have put two rolls of film through it, and asked my film lab to develop at ISO 800. When I get the negatives and prints back, most of the roll is fine, but a couple of the shots have these strange lines on them. This takes place on both of the rolls of film. See attached for a photo where this happens. 

The lines are visible on the negs and scans. Is this a development issue, or an issue with the shutter? 

 

Cheers

 

sam

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I’ve had similar problems on my negatives from my IIIf on recent films, I have since removed the lens and given the body a good few blasts of air with the rocket blower and got a lot of fluff out by the shutter curtains so hopefully this will have cured the problem. I still need to run a test film through the camera yet to see if it has sorted the problem out. 

[jerzy]

there could be many reasons for black stripes. I concentrate on those resulting from camera, this is something what I understand in contrary to developing and scanning.

If you see stripes between the frames, along the whole film than (most probably) film pressure plate is scratching it, or especially if scratches are at the beginning or end of the film than there is something in film transport causing scratches.
If the stripes occur on selected frames, faster speeds and on bright places than shutter/shutter curtains is most probable cause. The slid width on screwmount is approx 1,2mm at 1/1000, 2,4 at 1/500, etc. on properly adjusted camera. Photo below shows example of curtain producing thin black stripes at higher speeds. Another reason could be that the edge is uneven, happens especially on replaced curtains if not properly glued. Black stripes will be wider then.
 

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Problem occurs however with higher speeds only, when the "hairs" cover the whole or major part of the slid. There could be some temporarily solutions for this problem but the ultimate is to replace affected curtain.

[eastwestphoto]

On 11/30/2019 at 4:14 PM, Ibanez said:

Hi all 

 

so I recently purchased a Leica iiia and an Elmar 5cm 3.5. For a camera that is nearly 90 years old, it is in great condition. 

I have put two rolls of film through it, and asked my film lab to develop at ISO 800. When I get the negatives and prints back, most of the roll is fine, but a couple of the shots have these strange lines on them. This takes place on both of the rolls of film. See attached for a photo where this happens. 

The lines are visible on the negs and scans. Is this a development issue, or an issue with the shutter? 

 

Cheers

 

sam

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

development

 

[Jerry Attrik]

Has anyone tried this;  In a dark-bag, or glove-box (home built, of course) pop open a modern cassette remove the film complete on spool.  Open a FILCA put the loaded spool into the FILCA shell, close it up and try it  in a 'Barnac'.

Otherwise I may need to sacrifice a 24 exp.

I have had, recently to open a cassette to retrieve the tongue of a film which had been partly exposed and then fully wound back. I was an easy task, it just needed finger pressure to squish the cassette, allowing one side of the mouth to slide back over its partner, and the end cover peeled off the cassette body cleanly.  A similar procedure allowed re-assembly.

D.Lox

[Reini]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Jerry Attrik:

Has anyone tried this;  In a dark-bag, or glove-box (home built, of course) pop open a modern cassette remove the film complete on spool.  Open a FILCA put the loaded spool into the FILCA shell, close it up and try it  in a 'Barnac'.

I plan to do exactly the same to test my restored Leica IA for the first time ... when the sun shines again.

Why not!? I still have to sew a black sack. You don't have to disassemble a new spool, you can also pull out the film. Pay attention to the right side with the film emulsion !!

[Jerry Attrik]

7 minutes ago, Reini said:

I plan to do exactly the same to test my restored Leica IA for the first time ... when the sun shines again.

Why not!? I still have to sew a black sack. You don't have to disassemble a new spool, you can also pull out the film. Pay attention to the right side with the film emulsion !!

Cannot argue that, in principle.  I have a black bag but because our house is 200 years old we have no spare space, hobbies were not then considered.

I have a garden shed, as many of us, 120sq. ft. of floor space. To get into it to do anything simple I have to remove two fairly large garden implements, on wheels.

I have a 'Grand Design' to reclaim 1/2 the shed to build a darkroom in it (hope springs eternal).

BUT in the meantime I have to use a commercial Lab. for my processing

I have just taken an FP4, 24exp. from our refrigerator..........the (perhaps) sacrificial lamb.

D.Lox.

[Reini]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Jerry Attrik:

I have just taken an FP4, 24exp. from our refrigerator..........the (perhaps) sacrificial lamb.

D.Lox.

I wish you success! Then report how laborious it was to wind up ... haha. And I would also like to see pictures.
I already practiced in dry training with an old film (in light). Grazy Job. 😄

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[Ibanez]

On 12/4/2019 at 5:53 AM, jerzy said:

there could be many reasons for black stripes. I concentrate on those resulting from camera, this is something what I understand in contrary to developing and scanning.

If you see stripes between the frames, along the whole film than (most probably) film pressure plate is scratching it, or especially if scratches are at the beginning or end of the film than there is something in film transport causing scratches.
If the stripes occur on selected frames, faster speeds and on bright places than shutter/shutter curtains is most probable cause. The slid width on screwmount is approx 1,2mm at 1/1000, 2,4 at 1/500, etc. on properly adjusted camera. Photo below shows example of curtain producing thin black stripes at higher speeds. Another reason could be that the edge is uneven, happens especially on replaced curtains if not properly glued. Black stripes will be wider then.
 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Problem occurs however with higher speeds only, when the "hairs" cover the whole or major part of the slid. There could be some temporarily solutions for this problem but the ultimate is to replace affected curtain.

Hi 

 

thank you for your detailed response. I am hoping that it is in fact the development that is causing the issues. My IIIa currently has a roll of film in it. I am waiting to finish that, then I will send it off to be developed (to a new lab). 

I will post the results here. Unfortunately, I expect it is an issue with the camera, rather than development.