Lines on negatives - Leica iiia

[Ibanez]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi all 

 

so I recently purchased a Leica iiia and an Elmar 5cm 3.5. For a camera that is nearly 90 years old, it is in great condition. 

I have put two rolls of film through it, and asked my film lab to develop at ISO 800. When I get the negatives and prints back, most of the roll is fine, but a couple of the shots have these strange lines on them. This takes place on both of the rolls of film. See attached for a photo where this happens. 

The lines are visible on the negs and scans. Is this a development issue, or an issue with the shutter? 

 

Cheers

 

sam

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[farnz]

I think you might have a problem with the pressure plate.

Pete.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[dau]

Are the lines more prominent with shorter exposure times, i.e. when the scene is brighter?

[earleygallery]

If it's only on some frames then it's not development or the pressure plate.

It might possibly be 'dirt' on the shutter curtain edges - at faster speeds the slit will be very narrow and any stray stuff on the shutter edge (could be fraying or dirt) would result in this kind of effect.

You can look at the shutter through the lens mount as you wind it on - try to clean the edges of each curtain very carefully.

[romualdo]

check these links - we are possibly dealing with "Ragged Edges on Shutter Curtains" scenario

 

[Ibanez]

11 hours ago, dau said:

Are the lines more prominent with shorter exposure times, i.e. when the scene is brighter?

 

Hi, yes they are. I believe those shots were taken at 1/100. 

[Ibanez]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, paulmac said:

This due to the use of a modern type film cassette. The 111a is not designed to use these as they are the wrong size. The way to completely get rid of this problem is to use the proper BRASS LEITZ CASSETTE the camera was designed to use. Plenty available and the only downside is that you need to load them in a darkroom. Search the forum as I wrote a post about how to transfer film from a modern cassette to the Leitz one. If you do this your lines will disapear. Note the lines are not scratches as these would show as white lines on the positive image. The problem is due to film positioning and pressure being put on the emulsion by the camera. It's  not due to scratching of the emulsion and although it sounds improbable this was the solution to the same problem that I had with my 111a. Use the correct cassette and no lines! The later LTM Leicas don't have this issue as they can use the modern film cassettes and have a positioning tongue on the base plate. It took me a long time to find out the cause of my 111a marking the film with black lines on the print but this proved to be the answer. The correct Leitz code for the cassette is FILCA and that's the one you need and is the very well made brass type for the LTM cameras and NOT the later type for the M cameras. They go for around £8-10 on EBAY. Prior to sorting this issue I tried everything with my 111a. I removed the body and cleaned it all internally with jewellers rouge to ensure that nothing would scratch the film. It was all immaculately clean with no sharp edges BUT still the black lines! I was driving me mad to try and sort it until I had the same problem with a Hasselblad film back. On investigating it I found that the film was being pressurised by residue on the rollers and once cleaned the problem disappeared. I then thought about the 111a that was exhibiting exactly the same fault BUT I had cleaned it all out so I figured that it had to be a film positioning issue and the only way that could be happening was by the cassette not positioning  it correctly and so it proved to be. Problem FINALLY  sorted!

Wow, will check this out, thanks!

[dau]

28 minutes ago, Ibanez said:

 

Hi, yes they are. I believe those shots were taken at 1/100. 

If so, ragged or dirty shutter curtain edges are likely, as romualdo pointed out above. I don't see how the wrong size of film cartridge can produce this kind of problem.

[Pyrogallol]

I always use Leica cassettes but have still had this problem on occasion, usually at higher shutter speeds, most noticeable on thin negatives ( under exposed). 

[romualdo]

5 hours ago, paulmac said:

The later LTM Leicas don't have this issue as they can use the modern film cassettes and have a positioning tongue on the base plate. 

But I have been having the same problem, horizontal lines only at high speeds (on only two frames from 36 in my last roll) on a IIIg with a normal film cassette

Edited December 1, 2019 by romualdo

[Ibanez]

Thank you all. Does anyone have a links to webpages on how to  sort out the fraying shutter curtains?

[Reini]

My opinion is, it is not due to the film cassettes Modern vs Filca. A modern film cassette is certainly better than the Filca. Damage to the film due to the cartridge would cause scratches. They are probably holes in the shutter curtain. Various factors can make the stripes visible. Very bright subject, small aperture zb.

[Reini]

Ok Paulmac, it may be that you have the experience. If the Filca are so much better (especially for the IIIa) than modern cassettes, they would not cost $ 10 but $ 100.
I have already repaired some Leicas and no big difference in the cassette housing.
Even of these stripes stripes themselves have not seen anything in my negatives. Presumably because the Curtains have been replaced by me or absolutely okay.
But I like to learn 😉

@Ibanez take down the lens once, put paper instead of film in the film slot and watch if something from the curtain on the paper grinds.

 

[UliWer]

If the lines were caused by scratching either in the camera or in the spool they would look more defined - like telephone wires. 

My guess is that the lines ibanez shows in his example result from a fault in devoloping. 

[Reini]

Paulmac thanks for your detailed explanation. But I do not recognize any reason for the stripes.
I once restored a IIIa, passed it on. Half a year later, the new owner wrote:> Thank you, the camera works well and without any problems ... <

He certainly used normal cassettes as in his other cameras.

[earleygallery]

35 minutes ago, paulmac said:

I think that on looking at the prints that you are probably correct here.

My black lines are much more defined than these and it does indeed seem that a development issue could be the culprit here???

If it's development how come it's only on some frames and not the whole roll of film?

Ragged/dirty shutter curtain edges as I said previously is my immediate thought. Seen it before.

[UliWer]

This was caused by insufficient quantity of developer in the developing tank. Since the film is rolled up in the developing tank, some parts of it get enough developer and others don't.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The camera is perfect. Other films - when I stopped trying to do my own developing - never showed this issue. 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by UliWer

[otto.f]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

fault in devoloping. 

Very strange if that happens to some images and others not. Seems to me that it has to do with the curtain, at least something related to different exposure times. 

[UliWer]

Another example from the same film as in #21:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

No lines (or better: you see them only when you look at the photo - in the sky - very exactly). As said before if you use an insufficient quantity of developer it depends on the position in the film roll whether the exposure is (more or less) properly developed or not.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by UliWer

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Ibanez]

15 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Another example from the same film as in #21:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

No lines (or better: you see them only when you look at the photo - in the sky - very exactly). As said before if you use an insufficient quantity of developer it depends on the position in the film roll whether the exposure is (more or less) properly developed or not.

 

Great, I’ll try and send my next roll off to another lab. 

 

Thanks!