M10 sensor (Does one need more)

[adan]

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I'd like at least another stop of banding-less ISO (to 20000-25000) - I like shooting in really dark places, hand-held, with minimal shake, and am always ready to push that envelope further.

Especially since it is doubtful Leica can come up with a 135mm f/1.4 that an M can focus reliably -

I am definitely NOT eager to jump to 35 or 41 or 47 Mp - such cameras will not be on my purchase list. I'd even give up some resolution (back to 18-20 Mp) if that helped.

Certainly there are technologies where Leica is a bit behind - backlit CMOS being one - that should be adopted when possible. Regardless of pixel count.

Nonetheless, I am generally happy with the M10 sensor as it is. It has already opened doors that previous rangefinder digitals couldn't (and only RFs count, in my book).

[Paulus]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Gobert:

Luckily not. Then we would have had a M type with electronic view finder in stead of the optical one.

...... if the M 11 wil stay an " M " we will know that for sure...

[Paulus]

Am 26.11.2019 um 20:11 schrieb adriantyler:

I picked up an ex demo M10, having used and loved M3's M6's and having been somewhat frustrated with the M9 when it came out (I sold it soon after purchase)

Since the M9 I went the Nikon D3x & D810 then Sony A7 route (A7rII and Rx1rII) and consider the latter (along with DXO) to have the best contemporary 35mm sensors.

Now, having used the M10 for a while I don't miss the "extra" resolution or dynamic range. I use and expose the M10 differently and the results are (to my eye) more "film-like" out of the box.

So, here is the question, we are so accustomed to see "film based" images with the inherent limits on dynamic range etc. Do you think we need more?

 

cheers

Welcome to the forum.

[Paulus]

Am 26.11.2019 um 20:11 schrieb adriantyler:

I picked up an ex demo M10, having used and loved M3's M6's and having been somewhat frustrated with the M9 when it came out (I sold it soon after purchase)

Since the M9 I went the Nikon D3x & D810 then Sony A7 route (A7rII and Rx1rII) and consider the latter (along with DXO) to have the best contemporary 35mm sensors.

Now, having used the M10 for a while I don't miss the "extra" resolution or dynamic range. I use and expose the M10 differently and the results are (to my eye) more "film-like" out of the box.

So, here is the question, we are so accustomed to see "film based" images with the inherent limits on dynamic range etc. Do you think we need more?

 

cheers

It's a good question in this day and age, where " more " is not always healthy for the planet and overconsumption is a word, that we begin to know in several disciplines. 

[adriantyler]

10 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks!

[Paulus]

vor einer Stunde schrieb adriantyler:

Thanks!

You can ad a website to you profile if you find it worth you while.

[adriantyler]

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4 hours ago, Paulus said:

You can ad a website to you profile if you find it worth you while.

Thanks! Good idea!

https://www.adriantyler.net/

[maxfairclough]

It seems a lot of people here don't need more. I can say that the m10 is simply perfect and I love it. 

However, I would like to see 48MP and better dynamic range in the M11. I would like that. That is relevant to me and the work that I produce.

[LBJ2]

Never say never 😎

People have been posting for years they don't need more MPs. Whatever they were currently accustomed to seemed to meet their needs. Yet, somehow manufacturers figured otherwise and the MP race continues. I'll bet most that say 24MP is all they would ever need, said the same about 18MPs. 

I've now owned and worked with 24, 36, 42 and 61MP FF cameras. Personally, I've found 61MPs was the most challenging for me to adjust compared to 24, 36, 42. IMO a few more tradeoffs at 61MPs that didn't seem apparent to me going from 24 to 42. But I need to check back in with myself in some more months to see how I feel and if I fully adjusted to 61 MPs or not. For now I shoot both M10 24MPs and A7rIV 61 MPs side by side so easy to see the differences on a day to day basis particularly while post processing. Never say never 😎 

Edited December 2, 2019 by LBJ2

[jakontil]

To sum up my situation right now, m10 is probably the last M i’d ever need in terms of image quality

[paulsydaus]

On 12/1/2019 at 3:50 AM, adan said:

I'd like at least another stop of banding-less ISO (to 20000-25000) - I like shooting in really dark places, hand-held, with minimal shake, and am always ready to push that envelope further.

Are your shooting predominately black and white or color?

[adan]

24 minutes ago, paulsydaus said:

Are your shooting predominately black and white or color?

Both equally.

[adriantyler]

8 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

For now I shoot both M10 24MPs and A7rIV 61 MPs side by side so easy to see the differences on a day to day basis particularly while post processing

Yes, I use the M10 24mp and Sony A7rii side by side and the difference is apparent, also the "look" is apparent, it takes me more work with the Sony to get that "film" look that the M10 seems to nail out of the box. But, yes I can get there easily enough with the Sony and I think it's a bit easier to expose in terms of not worrying too much about highlights.

The resolution thing, however, has me wondering as I have both 24mp and 18mp prints on my wall that are 1.5 metres wide, they were carefully up-resed and look great... So before "went back" to the 24mp of the M10 I just took "more is better mantra" for granted and followed the herd, now I recon' its "horses for courses," the 42mp Sony with Canon TSE lenses & the zoom does the more technical stuff and the M10 the rest, with no desire whatsoever for more mp or dynamic range... yet... 😉

[LBJ2]

The M10's 24 MPs is just fine along with M glass produces beautiful images to include large prints. The M11 will probably be greater than 24Mps.

"Love the one you're with." 😎

[sebben]

The M10 still bands a lot with pushed shadows when under exposing to protect from highlight clipping. Would be nice if it didn't do that for sure so there is room for improvement. 

[mmx_2]

5 minutes ago, sebben said:

The M10 still bands a lot with pushed shadows when under exposing to protect from highlight clipping. Would be nice if it didn't do that for sure so there is room for improvement. 

I think this is mainly a problem with cooling of the processor. But I agree, the M246 had the same issues :(.

 

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

 "...Do you think we need more?"

For most uses, probably not. 

A 24 MP sensor seems to be adequate for 90-95% (guessing) of non printing uses.  For printing, I have found that my M-P 240 can produce 16x24 inch prints that are saturated, high contrast and razor sharp (a lot of that outcome - perhaps most of it - depends on the skill of the person doing the post-processing and printing). 

At 24x36 inches, the prints are a tiny bit less sharp, but are still of exhibit quality.  So with regard to a camera that can mount Leica glass - undeniably a factor in printed image quality - the real question is do you want or need to print larger than 24x36 inches?  That's a fairly large print by most people's standards.

I am hoping the M11 will have the Q2's 47 MP ISO 50,000 sensor.  That sensor gives us for all intents and purposes medium format digital capability in a 35mm size camera.  Having recently acquired a Q2, I will be quite interested to see the prints it produces at 24x36 inch size and larger.  With an increase of 95% in terms of pixels, I would expect to be able to print 50% larger than 16x24 or 24x36 inches with an increase in printed image quality.

24x36 and 36x54 inch prints are as big as I can ever see myself wanting to make; therefore I have no reality based need for a 100 MP medium format camera and the weight, size and godawful prices that come with such a system.  Unless a person wants to make prints the size of a house, around 50 MP seems to be a sufficiently large enough sensor. 

I will happily take improved high ISO performance over more pixels.

 

[HELM]

56 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

For most uses, probably not. 

A 24 MP sensor seems to be adequate for 90-95% (guessing) of non printing uses.  For printing, I have found that my M-P 240 can produce 16x24 inch prints that are saturated, high contrast and razor sharp (a lot of that outcome - perhaps most of it - depends on the skill of the person doing the post-processing and printing). 

At 24x36 inches, the prints are a tiny bit less sharp, but are still of exhibit quality.  So with regard to a camera that can mount Leica glass - undeniably a factor in printed image quality - the real question is do you want or need to print larger than 24x36 inches?  That's a fairly large print by most people's standards.

I am hoping the M11 will have the Q2's 47 MP ISO 50,000 sensor.  That sensor gives us for all intents and purposes medium format digital capability in a 35mm size camera.  Having recently acquired a Q2, I will be quite interested to see the prints it produces at 24x36 inch size and larger.  With an increase of 95% in terms of pixels, I would expect to be able to print 50% larger than 16x24 or 24x36 inches with an increase in printed image quality.

24x36 and 36x54 inch prints are as big as I can ever see myself wanting to make; therefore I have no reality based need for a 100 MP medium format camera and the weight, size and godawful prices that come with such a system.  Unless a person wants to make prints the size of a house, around 50 MP seems to be a sufficiently large enough sensor. 

I will happily take improved high ISO performance over more pixels.

 

Thank you for highlighting the destination (A Print) as the measurement stick. Just printed out a 13x19 from my trip to Milan and the M10D output looks wonderful. Do I need to print out larger than 24 x 36? I have just a few times but I also stand back several feet to look at it 🙂. I for one will not be looking to upgrade to a 45+MP M11.  Much better ISO, maybe... I also have a 50MP Canon 5Ds and I use that extra resolution for cropping only

[M11 for me]

Oh, I think the larger the print the more impressive. I love prints of min. 100x66cm which is about 40 inches on the long side. For this I can well unse uncroped M10 images. Still I look forward to the M11 hoping it has the 45+ Mpix.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[sblutter]

I use an M240 - sensor pretty close to M10 (which is why I took a pass on the M10)

I've made prints 60x40 inches that are sharp as a tack with no noise with a little up-rezing in Photoshop.  A well exposed capture without much pp is very important

I'm sure the eventual M11 sensor will have much bigger specs -  but I don't need prints any larger than that

After I have a chance to play with some M11 DNG's, we'll see.  Maybe if the 240 dies, but it still gives me everything I need & is a joy to work with