Moving to S 006 from Sony mirrorless

[WillGT]

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Hello,

I am new to the Leica world and am very excited to get my first medium format camera, the S006. I wanted to hear your thoughts. It’s been nerve wracking for me due to the investment and being new to medium format. The compelling reason is the amazing reproduction of images and a compelling “fidelity” of medium format. The decision for Leica is due to the images I’ve seen from the person who showed me his photos, I was drawn emotionally.  I also considered the X1D but wasn’t quite convinced with the functionality, and the images. I have a Sony a7r3 and considering selling it along with my seven lenses. Thank you.

Willy

[jaapv]

If you are bitten by the bug that is it. resistance is futile... Welcome to Leica and the Leica world. (Warts and all  )

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[Deliberate1]

Welcome. Willy. You have come to the right place. The 006 is the foundation of a wonderful camera system that can make deeply moving images, as you have discovered. But, as is always the case in such matters, it is the primarily pilot, not the plane. And this is particularly true with the Leica MF systems. Having spent the past five years or so with both the 006 and 007, I can speak to the joys and frustrations of this elegant box. May I first suggest that you will find the experience to be very different than shooting a state of the art mirrorless computer with stabilization, movable screen, sophisticated focusing systems and the capacity to shoot in near darkness. And that is, in not small part, much of the allure. The S camera will make you a better photographer - or it will be the source of considerable frustration. Or both. You must work this camera, just as you would any fine tool. It will not do the work for you. Over my time with the S I have discovered that many of the limitations I perceived were my own. I just was not using the camera as it was intended, or expected to. And learning what to do, by slowing down the whole process,  has made me a better photographer. That said, the 006 does have well known limitations, most notably its ASA ceiling. You will find your own comfort level. But most of us shoot at the base ISO and rarely venture beyond 400 if we can help it. Surely, there will some who contest this, and more power to them. If you convert to B&W, the ISO envelope is deeper. But the limits of the CCD sensor are there to be explored, as are the blissful renderings it can produce under ideal lighting conditions. While the 007 can reach further into the darkness, I still long for the warmth of the CCD sensor. A tip: If the situation is right, you may under-expose the image by as much as 2 to 2.5 stops because it can be restored in post-processing. That is one of the benefits of MF.

If you have not yet purchased your camera, I strongly encourage you to find one whose sensor has been replaced. Perhaps you are aware that a design defect caused the sensor to degrade and corrode. For a time, Leica replaced them with a new version without charge, but that program is long over. The cost to replace is around $1000, if memory serves.

Finally, if you have not yet chosen a first lens, I suggest the normal lens, which is the 70mm. I find it to be extremely versatile and, while not Noctilux fast, it is as fast as you are going to get with MF. Ebay is a very good source of Leica MF gear. That said, it is best to do business with a Leica dealer if you can. I have bought several items from Josh at Leica Miami. And when something goes wrong, and it does, he has proved to be and invaluable resource. 

Willy, you will  find this community of Leica enthusiasts to be extremely welcoming and generous. I have taken full advantage of the wealth of experience and am a better photographer for it.

Happy shooting,

David   

Edited November 25, 2019 by Deliberate1

[Jeff S]

And to add to David’s cautionary notes, I suggest that you only consider purchasing a lens having the most current AF motor, as failures are possible with any S lens still having the old assembly.  This is another reason to shop with a trustworthy dealer, like Leica Miami, to ensure the latest parts and professional service/warranty.

I tested the S006, but found that it was too too limited for my hand holding needs in less than good light, especially considering the lack of IBIS or OIS, and with that big mirror action.  But the files are superb when well rendered.  The S007 provides much more flexibility in diverse shooting conditions, although via CMOS rather than CCD sensor.  

The next generation S3, as you might have heard, has been delayed for over a year, and dealers are no longer actively stocking S gear to prior levels.  This is either a break in the action, or a potential concern for the future system.  That said, the existing gear, with caveats noted, is still first class in many ways.  There are some great bargains to be found (with the flip side that the sales/trade market is difficult). 

Jeff

[alan.y]

I moved from Sony mirrorless with Leica R lenses and M bodies with M lenses to the S2, and later the S007. There's simply no comparison in image quality (in a holistic sense) in lighting conditions that don't tax the S, regardless of nominal megapixel count. I think I understand what you mean by "fidelity" combined with affect, which sounds paradoxical but really isn't. Good that you recognize this quality amidst all the Otuses and Sigma Art and other great-for-charts lenses of the world.

With S gear prices being so deflated nowadays, I doubt it'll be much of a financial hardship switching from your set-up of 7 lenses to a modest S setup with two lenses.

But beware of the long-term / hidden costs. There've been various accounts, but I think replacing a corroded CCD sensor costs considerably more than $1000. More like $3000. And Leica will pressure you to "upgrade" to the S007 at MRSP, i.e. pay a difference much more than the market value of a used S 007. Recent threads here have reported again on the mysterious repairs that Leica tends to charge on S bodies when users send them in to repair the auto-peeling armor.

I've since moved back to shooting film because of this, and because I don't want to carry the weight of S gear anymore. But again in terms of IQ in good light you'll be very happy to have switched.

Leica Miami doesn't have much used S gear in stock right now, but Leica Store San Francisco has a lot and will be eager to trade.

 

[HuntingSand]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb WillGT:

Hello,

I am new to the Leica world and am very excited to get my first medium format camera, the S006. I wanted to hear your thoughts. It’s been nerve wracking for me due to the investment and being new to medium format. The compelling reason is the amazing reproduction of images and a compelling “fidelity” of medium format. The decision for Leica is due to the images I’ve seen from the person who showed me his photos, I was drawn emotionally.  I also considered the X1D but wasn’t quite convinced with the functionality, and the images. I have a Sony a7r3 and considering selling it along with my seven lenses. Thank you.

Willy

Careful what you wish for.

[Sarnian]

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8 hours ago, alan.y said:

 I think replacing a corroded CCD sensor costs considerably more than $1000. More like $3000. 

 

My 006 has a little sensor corrosion (I bought it like for just £786!) but when I enquired back in May this year as to much a new sensor would cost I was quoted EUR2,400 + VAT ($2,642 + VAT/£2,048 + VAT.).

[WillGT]

Thanks to all who were so kind to reply. I didn’t see a reply field in each response so I opted to reply to the post itself. 😊 I am encouraged by such helpful advice. Samy’s camera here in Los Angeles is selling me their 006 for slightly over 4K. (I had just looked at their Hasselblad x1D2 but wasn’t moved.) I’m also considering the 70mm lens. Together it will take up my holiday budget. I will also check Leica San Francisco. I want to add that I’m not a professional photographer but am very much smitten with photography. My basic knowledge is from my home in the Philippines - basics about manual shooting, aperture and shutter speed settings, and how the camera moves like the eyes yet is compelled by the fertile mind...

Willy

[Jeff S]

19 minutes ago, WillGT said:

Thanks to all who were so kind to reply. I didn’t see a reply field in each response so I opted to reply to the post itself. 😊 I am encouraged by such helpful advice. Samy’s camera here in Los Angeles is selling me their 006 for slightly over 4K. (I had just looked at their Hasselblad x1D2 but wasn’t moved.) I’m also considering the 70mm lens. Together it will take up my holiday budget. I will also check Leica San Francisco. I want to add that I’m not a professional photographer but am very much smitten with photography. My basic knowledge is from my home in the Philippines - basics about manual shooting, aperture and shutter speed settings, and how the camera moves like the eyes yet is compelled by the fertile mind...

Willy

Just hit the ‘Quote’ button to reply to an individual post.... like this. Multiple quotes are also possible in same post, but a bit more work.

Jeff

[WillGT]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Just hit the ‘Quote’ button to reply to an individual post.... like this. Multiple quotes are also possible in same post, but a bit more work.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff.

[geetee1972]

19 hours ago, Sarnian said:

My 006 has a little sensor corrosion (I bought it like for just £786!) but when I enquired back in May this year as to much a new sensor would cost I was quoted EUR2,400 + VAT ($2,642 + VAT/£2,048 + VAT.).

Evern if you swallowed that cost, the total outlay would still make it a very inexpensive 006

[Sarnian]

4 hours ago, geetee1972 said:

Evern if you swallowed that cost, the total outlay would still make it a very inexpensive 006

Yes, particularly as I wouldn't be charged VAT (as a Channel Islands resident) so it would be a straight £2,048.

I'm going back and forth on this as I saw a 007 go for £3,500 on eBay quite recently (although they generally go for c.£5,000). So... £2,800 in total for a 006 with a new sensor or c.£5,000 for a secondhand 007. Decisions, decisions! 

[otto.f]

And if ever, it’s more likely that a CDD S goes up in price after a few years than a CMOS S

[Sarnian]

22 minutes ago, otto.f said:

And if ever, it’s more likely that a CDD S goes up in price after a few years than a CMOS S

So get it fixed before Leica runs out of the 'old tech' 006 CCD sensors?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Sarnian

[Deliberate1]

10 minutes ago, otto.f said:

And if ever, it’s more likely that a CDD S goes up in price after a few years than a CMOS S

No snarkiness intended, but is there any precedence for a digital camera actually increasing in value. And by that I mean, it has acquired some illusive collectable status reflected in an across the board price enhancement. And by increase in value, I am not referring to what is colorfully referred to as a "dead cat bounce," when stocks rebound marginally after a big hit. Rather, I mean what happens with certain collectable bodies and Leica glass.

[helged]

29 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

No snarkiness intended, but is there any precedence for a digital camera actually increasing in value. And by that I mean, it has acquired some illusive collectable status reflected in an across the board price enhancement. And by increase in value, I am not referring to what is colorfully referred to as a "dead cat bounce," when stocks rebound marginally after a big hit. Rather, I mean what happens with certain collectable bodies and Leica glass.

M9 seems to keep the value well, at least in world of digital cameras, exactly because of the colour and crispyness of the CCD sensor. Leica also sell refurbished (and externally colourful) M9s... https://www.slack.co.uk/m9-for-ccd-lovers.html. And then you have the M9 Monochrome 

Personally I miss the M9 (and M9M), so the S006 I will keep... 

Edited November 26, 2019 by helged

[otto.f]

46 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

No snarkiness intended, but is there any precedence for a digital camera actually increasing in value. And by that I mean, it has acquired some illusive collectable status reflected in an across the board price enhancement. 

Monochrome 1 has such a tendency. And every other camera that is not making a big chance to surpassed by some iPhone before long.

But as I said: ‘If ever...’ Leica is in digital only 10 years. The M4, did it increase in value after the last copy was sold?

[Stuart Richardson]

Value is tough...film cameras could increase in value if they were old because you could always put in the latest and greatest film...I am not sure the M3 would be worth what it is today if you had to use film from 1954....certainly a few cameras retain value on the basis of their particular look etc, but still, they are not THAT valuable. M9 cameras are mostly selling for less than 3000 dollars, generally around 2000, and their price was around 7000 dollars new. That is not much appreciation! The 006 was 20,000 dollars new and sells for 4000? Less? The S2 was 23000? sells for 2500? 

[otto.f]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

if you had to use film from 1954

I don’t see what’s wrong with an M9 or S006 image. I can’t say that of 1953 photo’s. The development that we see now, for instance in the SL2, is getting levels of image ‘quality’ that are beginning to become surreal or hyperreal. I don’t want that.

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Hallo,

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[Stuart Richardson]

My point was not to say that M9 or S006 images were bad, only that it is a little different than with film cameras, as with film cameras you are not bound to the sensor installed in the camera at the time of manufacture. I am sure the S006 and M9 would retain their sales price better if they could be continuously updated with the most recent sensor technology. Whether that is necessary or not is certainly another question. I guess I am in the boat with Deliberate1, in the sense that I think "investing" in one of these systems and expecting them to increase in value is probably not a good bet to make. If you want to buy one because you want to use it, great! Enjoy the undeservedly low prices.