~$10,000 - What should I get?

[WvE]

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9 hours ago, vinicio said:

Hey buddy,

all the comments above are more than useful. Mine is...

M10-P and a 50 Summicron, used, good condition, and you are done for the rest of your life.

Until the M11 comes around the corner ... :-)

[dummilux]

The M9 refurbished program has a waiting list so I decided to place an order for a used M10 from Leica Miami ($4999). It'll leave me with enough cash to get a 35mm Summilux and my favorite lens the Zeiss 50mm 1.5. I splurged on next-day shipping so the body should be here tomorrow! Hopefully I'm not disappointed like I was with the M240. 

So even with having the cash in hand the M10P was too much money. It felt wrong to spend thousands of dollars more for only two extra features. That, and I still have PTSD from someone stealing all of my previous gear. 

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[ianman]

22 hours ago, Maxx71 said:

If you get the M9, you'll end up thinking a lot of how you should have gotten the M10. You know this to be inevitable.

Why? The M10 has a CMOS, the M9 a CCD. If the OP prefers the CCD - as I do - there is no reason to want an M10. Size, quiet shutter are far outweighed by image quality (quality in the sense of "personality" but I couldn't think of the right word). I bet changing ISO is faster on the M9 than the M10 and the M9 is also arguably better looking with the traditional frameline illuminator. Some say the M10 viewfinder is better, and that may well be so. It doesn't mean the viewfinder of the M9 is bad.

[Jeff S]

22 minutes ago, ianman said:

Why? The M10 has a CMOS, the M9 a CCD. If the OP prefers the CCD - as I do - there is no reason to want an M10. Size, quiet shutter are far outweighed by image quality (quality in the sense of "personality" but I couldn't think of the right word). I bet changing ISO is faster on the M9 than the M10 and the M9 is also arguably better looking with the traditional frameline illuminator. Some say the M10 viewfinder is better, and that may well be so. It doesn't mean the viewfinder of the M9 is bad.

He chose the M10, but there are pluses and minuses both ways, each in the eyes of the beholder.  

The M10 also might also have less battery life per charge, but the body is more robust (no sensor corrosion, better weather sealing), more resolution (MP), and more malleable and still excellent file quality,  The M10 VF differs in measurable ways... bigger opening, better eye relief (for eyeglass users) and higher magnification... and the frame lines are optimized for 2m (as opposed to 1m for the M9).  

The M10 is a more modern, better built platform, but individual priorities and preferences (including the price/value equation) can surely differ.  I own the M10 and Monochrom (M9 based), so both have their place.

Jeff

[ianman]

The 2 major factors involved in image capture are the lens and the sensor (or film). The rest is irrelevant in that regard. The lenses are of course unchanged. Choosing a CMOS camera over a CCD is the similar to someone shooting Tri-X and switching to T-Max. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying it's a major difference compared to the minor differences that are VF, battery, size, framlines, etc.

So saying the M10 is somehow an upgrade from an M9 is wrong. An M10 is an upgrade from the M240.

Hence my previous post started with the question "why?" Because obviously the member that I quoted seems to think that an M10 is merely an updated M9. Yet it is a completely different way of recording the light.

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, ianman said:

The 2 major factors involved in image capture are the lens and the sensor (or film). The rest is irrelevant in that regard. 

But I would argue that the most important factor in final (print) rendering is the user... just as in darkroom days.  The most important tools reside between the ears... a good eye and good judgment.  That’s why some produce great results, and others mediocre results, using the same gear (or film, etc). Thankfully.  

Jeff

[ianman]

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2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

But I would argue that the most important factor in final (print) rendering is the user... just as in darkroom days.

And I would agree with your argument. But I wrote "image capture" on purpose, meaning the exposure of the film / recording of data on the sensor. 🙂

Of course the user is the most important at every stage, but we were talking specifically about the tools.

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, ianman said:

And I would agree with your argument. But I wrote "image capture" on purpose, meaning the exposure of the film / recording of data on the sensor. 🙂

Of course the user is the most important at every stage, but we were talking specifically about the tools.

And I specifically said final rendering since capture doesn’t much matter to me without considering PP flexibility.  I haven’t made an exhibition worthy print without some PP involved in my 45 years of photography.  And in this day and age, higher DR sensors will typically produce flat, OOC files...even the CCD based Monochrom.  The tools are important, but they produce an unfinished starting point, not a predetermined result.

Jeff

[Ko.Fe.]

M10 and Summarit 35.

Or M-E mkii and 35 FLE. Where I’m large battery is good in winter.

[Maxx71]

On 11/13/2019 at 5:59 PM, ianman said:

The 2 major factors involved in image capture are the lens and the sensor (or film). The rest is irrelevant in that regard. The lenses are of course unchanged. Choosing a CMOS camera over a CCD is the similar to someone shooting Tri-X and switching to T-Max. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying it's a major difference compared to the minor differences that are VF, battery, size, framlines, etc.

So saying the M10 is somehow an upgrade from an M9 is wrong. An M10 is an upgrade from the M240.

Hence my previous post started with the question "why?" Because obviously the member that I quoted seems to think that an M10 is merely an updated M9. Yet it is a completely different way of recording the light.

I agree that the 2 major factors in image capture are the lens and the sensor but I don't agree that "the rest is irrelevant in that regard." The M9, M240, M10 EACH have their own image "look." Nothing we can do about the fact that the sensors are different. Now which camera is better in terms of DR and ISO performance? In terms of performance (not image rendering or "look") the M10 is an updated M9. It's also an updated M240 and M8 and M8.2. Ultimately it's up to the user to prefer an image capture over another. I actually prefer my M240 over the M10 when paired with a 35mm summicron asph. But for other lenses I prefer my M10 over the M240. For ISO 800 and below I prefer the M9 sometimes. If i were to chose one, it's the M10 for image quality and "look" (yes i know this is subjective), handling, OVF, ISO and DR. For image quality alone, I'd skip all Leica M's and shoot with Sony but I'd lose inspiration and will need to take breaks by shooting with the M's.

[ianman]

10 hours ago, Maxx71 said:

I agree that the 2 major factors in image capture are the lens and the sensor but I don't agree that "the rest is irrelevant in that regard." The M9, M240, M10 EACH have their own image "look." Nothing we can do about the fact that the sensors are different. Now which camera is better in terms of DR and ISO performance? In terms of performance (not image rendering or "look") the M10 is an updated M9. It's also an updated M240 and M8 and M8.2. Ultimately it's up to the user to prefer an image capture over another. I actually prefer my M240 over the M10 when paired with a 35mm summicron asph. But for other lenses I prefer my M10 over the M240. For ISO 800 and below I prefer the M9 sometimes. If i were to chose one, it's the M10 for image quality and "look" (yes i know this is subjective), handling, OVF, ISO and DR. For image quality alone, I'd skip all Leica M's and shoot with Sony but I'd lose inspiration and will need to take breaks by shooting with the M's.

All that to say exactly the same thing. The "look" as you call it is down to the sensor, which is precisely what I wrote. The irrelevant stuff I was talking about but which is what gets listed so often is the "better" VF, the quiet shutter, the size, the buffer, etc.  None of these features help or affect the image in any way and so, in that regard, are irrelevant.

[dummilux]

This is what I ended up purchasing with the claim money:

• Leica M10

• Extra M10 Battery

• Zeiss 50mm F1.5 ZM

• Leica 35mm Summicron ASPH (previous model)

• Zeiss 18mm F4

• EVF 020

... and an M9!

Everything except the battery was bought used from either KEH, MPB, B&H or Leica Miami. The M9 is ratty but it has an updated sensor which is the only thing that matters to me.

Edit: The Summicron was purchased from Facebook Marketplace

Edited November 22, 2019 by dummilux

[bags27]

3 minutes ago, dummilux said:

This is what I ended up purchasing with the claim money:

• Leica M10

• Extra M10 Battery

• Zeiss 50mm F1.5 ZM

• Leica 35mm Summicron ASPH (previous model)

• Zeiss 18mm F4

• EVF 020

... and an M9!

Everything except the battery was bought used from either KEH, MPB, B&H or Leica Miami. The M9 is ratty but it has an updated sensor which is the only thing that matters to me.

What a great score! So intelligent a group of gear. Interesting that you replaced your Zeiss 35 f/1.4 with a Summicron.

Edited November 22, 2019 by bags27

[dummilux]

52 minutes ago, bags27 said:

What a great score! So intelligent a group of gear. Interesting that you replaced your Zeiss 35 f/1.4 with a Summicron.

Seeing that that M10 has better ISO performance I wanted to take this opportunity to make my setup more compact. If I don't like it, I'll sell the Summicron and go back to my old setup.

[mujk]

Good choice! The M9 is a very good camera, but the M10 is amazing and will be serviceable for longer than the M9. Eventually, all electronic devices using integrated circuits will go out of support because of lack of spare parts. OTOH, Leica M lenses will probably be serviceable for a very long time. At least for the moment, also Zeiss lens service seems to be good.

[Topsy]

I'd have replaced what was stolen and used the rest for travel but at least you got another M9. 👍