leica sl2 Leica SL2 dynamic range

[Chaemono]

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Here's a third one.  Now with Exposure only at +2, the Shadows slider can be pushed more.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

Same as above with Exposure +2, Highlights -53, Shadows +35, Sharpening +40, NR +60

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ISO 3200 f/2 @1/100 sec.

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Okay, I need to make myself more clear.  It's not the pushing of the Exposure slider alone that results in shadow artefacts in the SL2's ISO 3200 files, it's the combination of lifting exposure AND pushing the Shadows slider at the same time.  This is the best I have right now but it serves to illustrate the point. 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

SL2 + 50 Summicron-SL, LR defaults, WB adjusted

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ISO 3200 f/2 @1/100 sec.

Same as above with Exposure +3, Highlights -68, Shadows +10, Sharpening +40, NR +60ISO 3200 f/2 @1/100 sec.

Same as above with Exposure +4, Highlights -68, Sharpening +40, NR +60SO 3200 f/2 @1/100 sec.

You see how sparsely I used the Shadows slider?  Go to +20 in the second one to recover more shadows detail in the upper right hand corner, if you like that sort of thing, and artefacts will set in.  Go to +10 in the third and the same thing.  The only reason I brought it up is because the SL2 files can be pushed to the limit at low ISO more so than any other FF camera I've seen, while they can't at higher ISO.  As you push Exposure by four stops, for example, you won't be able to touch the Shadows slider in ISO 1600 SL2 files and above (not a big issue at ISO 800 and below).  This is different for all the Sony cameras or those that use a Sony sensor, like the S1 or the Simga fp.

First, I personally prefer greater DR at base ISO and second, I would have never taken this picture at ISO 3200.  With IBIS I would have shot it either at ISO 100 or ISO 400 (still to be determines what would be best) and at a shutter speed of 1/10 sec. or 1/30 sec.  If there is fast movement in the scene, it may be a different matter.  Depending on how much shadow detail you want to recover in the background, you may have to revert to the S1 then.

Edit - this was taken basically in the dark

Thanks Chaemono. Very valuable information about the camera and sensor characteristics. Your input is way more valuable than the multiple ‘SL2 hands on experience’ which the YouTubers just handle the camera for few hours and span off their superficial comments, a few even made blunders and worst are those that due to user incompetence blame the camera for poor performance. The real critic should show short comings with evidence and background information to support. Else apart from entrainment value, there is nothing for readers to gain, unless you’re equally shallow.

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[Chaemono]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

Thanks Chaemono. Very valuable information about the camera and sensor characteristics. Your input is way more valuable than the multiple ‘SL2 hands on experience’ which the YouTubers just handle the camera for few hours and span off their superficial comments, a few even made blunders and worst are those that due to user incompetence blame the camera for poor performance. The real critic should show short comings with evidence and background information to support. Else apart from entrainment value, there is nothing for readers to gain, unless you’re equally shallow.

Thanks for your feedback, sillbeers15.  I fell ill and can’t go out with the camera much.  So, I might as well do this. 

[Agent M10]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Thanks for your feedback, sillbeers15.  I fell ill and can’t go out with the camera much.  So, I might as well do this. 

Yes, all this work is well above my pay grade. So, thanks for doing it. 

[Chaemono]

Given the characteristics of the SL2' base ISO observed so far, it begs the question whether it's better to shoot like this,...

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ISO 3200 f/2 @1/320 sec.

or like this...

ISO 100, f/2 @1/320 sec.

...and then adjust brightness (exposure) later.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

First, in order to try to find the answer, one needs to do these tests with a tripod.  I took ISO 400, ISO 800, ISO 1600, and ISO 3200 shots with the same shutter speed as ISO 100 pictures and adjusted the exposure later in the base ISO files.  In all ISO 100 files, except for the ISO 1600 shot, the subject's face (angel with candle) where the focus point was set looked crispier.  All were handled, therefore, this could be purely random.  Take a look at the shots from above now with adjustments to try to match.

Less compressed JPEGs here:  https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

WB tweaked to try to match, Sharpening +80, NR +70

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ISO 3200 f/2 @1/320 sec.

WB tweaked to try to match, Exposure +5, Sharpening +80, NR +83ISO 100 f/2 @1/320 sec.

They look pretty similar.  Still, second, the answer to whether one should increase ISO or adjust exposure in post processing is, it depends.  And it depends on, to paraphrase/quote Mitrajoon's post #8 here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55245813, the nature of [...the...] camera's sensor and the characteristics of the scene one is shooting. Sometimes it's better to get it right in camera by increasing ISO, sometimes it's better to increase brightness in post (called exposure in PS/LR) even if your in camera shot is technically under exposed. And sometimes it doesn't matter.

How about in this example, though?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Chaemono

[helged]

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Thanks again, @Chaemono! I don't have access to a large screen (for the time being...), but the ISO100 images with +5 stops adjustment look surprisingly good as far as I can tell. The processed ISO 100 files have a too plastic appearance for my liking, but everyone can, of course, apply less aggressive smoothing. Certainly a big difference - and improvement - compared to the SL-sensor! Whether ISO-invariance or 'correctly' exposed images are the way to go is a tricky question, and needs shooting in lots of conditions to allow firm conclusion(s). But it is good to see the degree of push-ability (as you call it ) of the SL2-files!

[snooper]

Greetings Chaemono,

On this previous post, I see some differences between the 3 textures on the background walls.

You also have more details @3200 ISO on the grey roof (on one of them something must have happened or it's not the same shot) as well as on the right hand side wall behind the blue hat man and the statute... Seen from my screen, I still prefer the 3200 ISO rather than the "pushed" one...

Thanks again for your time !

Edit: sorry I destroyed your original pic just to show you where I find differences...

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Edited November 17, 2019 by snooper

[Chaemono]

Well, in this example, in addition to some texture differences, it also depends on how severely underexposed the base ISO file is, how much the adjustment 'latitude' has been exhausted after pushing exposure by five stops, and whether there is more shadow detail to be recovered.  Let's assume that on the right side of the picture there is some information one wants to obtain from the areas that remain dark even after the Exposure Slider has been lifted to +5., like color, for example.  The ISO 3200 file likely still has lots of available adjustment 'latitude,' to move the Shadows Slider, for instance, the ISO 100 file likely very little.  And this is exactly the case.  Let's look at the pictures now after the Shadows Slider has been moved to +100.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

WB tweaked to try to match, Sharpening +80, NR +70, AND Shadows +100

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ISO 3200 f/2 @1/320 sec.

WB tweaked to try to match, Exposure +5, Sharpening +80, NR +83, AND Shadows +100ISO 100 f/2 @1/320 sec.

We can see that we get the color back in the ISO 3200 file, we get shadow artefacts in the ISO 100 one.  'Push-ability' was simply exhausted in the ISO 100 picture.  BTW, the same applies to the ISO 1600 file vs. the ISO 100 file, but at ISO 800 and below, push-ability is enough in the ISO 100 images to recover the color since they were less severely underexposed.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb snooper:

Edit: sorry I destroyed your original pic just to show you where I find differences...

No worries.  You missed the artefacts in the upper left corner.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

How about ISO 400 vs. ISO 100 with exposure pushed by two stops?  There, I'd say, the ISO 100 picture looks slightly better because the subject's face looks crispier.  But, again, these were handheld.  Still, the SL2 looks ISO-less at base ISO to me.  In high contrast scenes, I'd say, definetily go for two stops of underexposure and ISO 100 rather than ISO 400.  You'll get the DNGs this time. 😀

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

ISO 400 shot with WB tweaked to try to match, Sharpening +40, NR 0.  DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g764843115-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=FYs_QMkMMmq_UZydZwtliTzVf6NNrYBlNcZ542NQeyk=

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ISO 400 f/2 @1/40 sec.

ISO 100 shot with WB tweaked to try to match, Sharpening +40, NR 0.  DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g1032053522-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=qikWpFUL1hmVQGRUW1Xu9dHkDPQ-bvvviF6Hmc0FS6M=

ISO 100 f/2 @1/40 sec.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And now processed to adjust the ISO 100 file in order to match the ISO 400 file in terms of exposure with all the other tweaks the same in both.  SL2's ISO 100 rules. 😁

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

ISO 400 shot with WB tweaked to try to match, Highlights -50, Shadows +100, Sharpening +60, NR +40

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ISO 400 f/2 @1/40 sec.

ISO 100 shot with WB tweaked to try to match, Exposure +2, Highlights -50, Shadows +100, Sharpening +60, NR +40ISO 100 f/2 @1/40 sec.

[helged]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

And now processed to adjust the ISO 100 file in order to match the ISO 400 file in terms of exposure with all the other tweaks the same in both.  SL2's ISO 100 rules. 😁

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/

ISO 400 shot with WB tweaked to try to match, Highlights -50, Shadows +100, Sharpening +60, NR +40

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ISO 400 f/2 @1/40 sec.

ISO 100 shot with WB tweaked to try to match, Exposure +2, Highlights -50, Shadows +100, Sharpening +60, NR +40ISO 100 f/2 @1/40 sec.

Very valuable tests and results!

Without digging into all photos (and waiting for the SL2 myself...), does the following summarise the main findings:

• For landscape, shoot at base ISO (=ISO 100), control the highlights and shadows can be lifted (this is normal procedure, I guess).
• For high-contrast scenes, shoot at ISO 100 to the extent possible dictated by the shutter speed, control the highlights. If higher shutter speeds are needed, shoot at the lowest possible ISO, and shadows can be lifted.
• For scenes with only modest contrast differences, a higher ISO may be preferable compared to ISO 100. 

[Chaemono]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb helged:

Very valuable tests and results!

Without digging into all photos (and waiting for the SL2 myself...), does the following summarise the main findings:

• For landscape, shoot at base ISO (=ISO 100), control the highlights and shadows can be lifted (this is normal procedure, I guess).
• For high-contrast scenes, shoot at ISO 100 to the extent possible dictated by the shutter speed, control the highlights. If higher shutter speeds are needed, shoot at the lowest possible ISO, and shadows can be lifted.
• For scenes with only modest contrast differences, a higher ISO may be preferable compared to ISO 100. 

For low light, the S1 beats them all.  Just shot it side by side with the SL2.  Those 24 MPx can virtually see in the dark.  Sigma fp uses the same sensor. 

[helged]

31 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

For low light, the S1 beats them all.  Just shot it side by side with the SL2.  Those 24 MPx can virtually see in the dark.  Sigma fp uses the same sensor. 

+1. Implying that - for those shooting in low light - S1 can be a better companioning to SL2 than S1R...

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb helged:

+1. Implying that - for those shooting in low light - S1 can be a better companioning to SL2 than S1R...

Yes, definitely.  The S1 is totally complementary, the S1R is redundant. 

[Donzo98]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

For low light, the S1 beats them all.  Just shot it side by side with the SL2.  Those 24 MPx can virtually see in the dark.  Sigma fp uses the same sensor. 

and the exact reason I traded my S1R for the S1

[Chaemono]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Donzo98:

and the exact reason I traded my S1R for the S1

Smart move because now you can still get the SL2.  The SL2 is more fun to shoot, also because it focuses instantaneously with the Summicrons.  Shooting both cameras side by side, I had the magnification window turned on with the S1 and it felt like it took for ever until the shot was taken.  But when there’s virtually no light and one pushes the files to the limit, extremely dark shadows in the OOF areas will turn blue with the SL2.  This phenomenon is a lot more prevalent with the S1R and sets in sooner.  See post #33.  There is a bit of blue tint with the SL2 in the OOF shadows on the left side of that picture, too.  But apparently the Leica version of the 47 MPx sensor uses different micro-lenses which may explain why the SL2 captures whatever little light there is more efficiently.  This ‘blueness-in-the-oof-pushed-to-the-limit-shadows’ is largely eliminated with the SL2, except in extreme low light.  The S1 gives you none of that.  As stated, the 24 MPx of the S1 can virtually see in the dark.

[Donzo98]

10 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Smart move because now you can still get the SL2.  The SL2 is more fun to shoot, also because it focuses instantaneously with the Summicrons.  Shooting both cameras side by side, I had the magnification window turned on with the S1 and it felt like it took for ever until the shot was taken.  But when there’s virtually no light and one pushes the files to the limit, extremely dark shadows in the OOF areas will turn blue with the SL2.  This phenomenon is a lot more prevalent with the S1R and sets in sooner.  See post #33.  There is a bit of blue tint with the SL2 in the OOF shadows on the left side of that picture, too.  But apparently the Leica version of the 47 MPx sensor uses different micro-lenses which may explain why the SL2 captures whatever little light there is more efficiently.  This ‘blueness-in-the-oof-pushed-to-the-limit-shadows’ is largely eliminated with the SL2, except in extreme low light.  The S1 gives you none of that.  As stated, the 24 MPx of the S1 can virtually see in the dark.

The S1 focus is CRAZY fast using the 50 APO SL. I'm not upgrading any time soon.

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

The S1 focus is CRAZY fast using the 50 APO SL. I'm not upgrading any time soon.

Who said anything about upgrade?  It’s a complement. Besides you won’t be able to post any pictures here.  You’ll have to do it in ‘Other L-Mount products.’ 😂

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[helged]

16 minutes ago, Donzo98 said:

The S1 focus is CRAZY fast using the 50 APO SL. I'm not upgrading any time soon.

What about AF for the S1+SL 90-280 combo? Anybody out there....? 

Edited November 19, 2019 by helged