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Can the new SL compete or even sostitute in some fields the S?


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28 minutes ago, otto.f said:

It depends of course on your subjects and goals as a photographer but I don’t see that. In the last decade all the extra options and AI in camera’s has become more a burden and a distraction than an assist. I do not see that the options of the SL2 lead to images that were hitherto impossible or very difficult to make. But I’m open to examples that would illustrate this.
All these extra options are a marketing thing to keep the machines running for geeks. And in the meantime there is no serious Leica camera with something simple as a tiltable screen.

IBIS can certainly expand the shooting envelope for many.  This alone, while common in other systems, provides significant handholding opportunities for Leica users IMO.

Jeff

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bilbrown

I was really considering this topic. Considering getting rid of my S body and three lenses for the SL2 - as I am also an SL owner and have invested in the L Mount system also across Lumix and Sigma (as of Sunday I also have the Sigma fp). So I have a great deal more L mount lenses and adapters than I do most anything else. I also have a Pentax 645Z as a medium format backup to my S, and that is larger or the same resolution as the SL2 at 50MP.   Here is what I think...  

ZHNL

I didn't buy SL, but I used it a few times when it first introduced and during I drop my S to Leica Store SF to have them serviced. At that time, I determined it was not good enough for me to spend the money, mainly the ergonomic and EVF and of course file quality are not better than other system I had.  It was simply not competitive enough. I also have to admit I was not a fan of EVF based camera. I am still not, but after force myself spend more time with Z7 and PanaS1, I have to say I do enjo

ZHNL

I just did test on all my S glasses on SL2 on tripod. They are all sharp to FF corner wide open. 70 reach peak at f5.6 cross frame. 35/100/120 around f4. but all of them resolve 47M sensor well and there is no corner issue. For peak sharpness with no DOF limitation, f5.6 is magic, f8 is gold and f11 you can notice downgrade clearly.   I am not a pixel PP but very picky during technical test as I need understand my gear right to use it wisely. (I also tested all my M glasses) I believe SL su

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IBIS is eminantly practical, giving several extra stops of handholdability. Beyond that, superior AF function, even if only the ability to move the focus point around is something that has been around for ages in other cameras. Things like multishot are nice to have and can do really good things when needed. For example, I shoot artwork reproduction in the studio, and having a multi-shot functionality that really works is a benefit. Not just for the resolution, but to minimize moire and aliasing. Unfortunately, it is still not ready for primetime for my use on the S1 (it is brilliant, but occasional artifacts are visible...I get the sense it works better in the MF Hasselblad cameras with tiny stepper motors).  You are right that many of the technological changes do not make much difference in daily shooting. And certainly too much technology can be a bad thing. I certainly have my feet on the ground in that way, and still use 4x5 and 8x10 on a regular basis. I love my wooden camera and wooden tripod, but there are times when I want something that can do a different kind of photography. For me that camera is the S, and I would be delighted if it could do things like IBIS, live view, focus more accurately, shoot good video, have a clean ISO 6400, extend exposure to 30 minutes and so on. It does not HAVE to do that, but it would sure be nice, and all of it is within technological reach.

 

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I agree with what you said. SL2 will make S3 a hard sell no matter how I view it. 

I use S mostly manual focus as AF is slower than me and cumbersome to use. 
 

TBF, the fancy tech we talk about SL2 are mostly inherent from Panasonic. That is the reason make it attractive to me, I didn’t moved by SL 3 years ago. 

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8 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I agree with what you said. SL2 will make S3 a hard sell no matter how I view it. 

I have the 007 and three lenses. I bought the SL2 and now cannot envision buying an S3. The S line gives a distinct look and I use it for that. I don't think that more MP would add much, if anything, to the 007. Maybe the S3 will provide clean files up to 6400 (heard on YouTube, I think), but it would still seem to be a hard sale. 

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2 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

I have the 007 and three lenses. I bought the SL2 and now cannot envision buying an S3. The S line gives a distinct look and I use it for that. I don't think that more MP would add much, if anything, to the 007. Maybe the S3 will provide clean files up to 6400 (heard on YouTube, I think), but it would still seem to be a hard sale. 

FWIW, the announcement (Photokina 2018) also emphasized (besides MP) the new color array, especially better reds and skin tones.

Jeff

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5 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

 

13 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I agree with what you said. SL2 will make S3 a hard sell no matter how I view it. 

I have the 007 and three lenses. I bought the SL2 and now cannot envision buying an S3. The S line gives a distinct look and I use it for that. I don't think that more MP would add much, if anything, to the 007. Maybe the S3 will provide clean files up to 6400 (heard on YouTube, I think), but it would still seem to be a hard sale.

 

I understand what you guys are saying, but for me, I don’t think an S3 will be a hard sell, eventually.

We all have different user cases and I am right in the middle of dumbing down the amount of equipment I take photographs with. I am planning on selling my last Sony, an RX100 mark one since I really cannot find any use for it now that I have the iPhone XS Max. Last weekend I was at a premier in a cinema setting and the only time I wanted to grab for my RX100 was when I wanted to take a tele-shot of some cast and crew members who were in front of the screen up on the stage.

But for all the other stuff, it was much more handy for me - and also much more rewarding I might add - to use the iPhone XS Max. It represents sort of a pinnacle in today’s computational photography, is constantly online and all social photography can be shared instantly, so that will cover photography for 95% of the world population in the 2020s.

For my own personal photography I can perfectly well make do with the S007 and later on with an S3. That is two quite opposite image making machines that I get to know very well and know what I can expect. I think this will help to gain a consistent look throughout my work.

But again, I understand what you’re saying, it’s just to say there are also different users here representing a different target market which does not have to think about clients, commercial shoots or return on investment.

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8 minutes ago, peterv said:

I understand what you guys are saying, but for me, I don’t think an S3 will be a hard sell, eventually.

We all have different user cases and I am right in the middle of dumbing down the amount of equipment I take photographs with. I am planning on selling my last Sony, an RX100 mark one since I really cannot find any use for it now that I have the iPhone XS Max. Last weekend I was at a premier in a cinema setting and the only time I wanted to grab for my RX100 was when I wanted to take a tele-shot of some cast and crew members who were in front of the screen up on the stage.

But for all the other stuff, it was much more handy for me - and also much more rewarding I might add - to use the iPhone XS Max. It represents sort of a pinnacle in today’s computational photography, is constantly online and all social photography can be shared instantly, so that will cover photography for 95% of the world population in the 2020s.

For my own personal photography I can perfectly well make do with the S007 and later on with an S3. That is two quite opposite image making machines that I get to know very well and know what I can expect. I think this will help to gain a consistent look throughout my work.

But again, I understand what you’re saying, it’s just to say there are also different users here representing a different target market which does not have to think about clients, commercial shoots or return on investment.

For sure. I understand what you said. 
my personal view is if the new introduction is mainly pixel count improvement than it is a hard sell for me personally. 
 

pixels is Cheap these days. Multi shot high res mode is good for most situation for me actually and preferred way to get high pixel because it remove bayer filter and offer more than 2 stop DR. And most of Use case with it is on tripod anyway. 
 

S line need figure out what is shine for? What is its competitive edge? It has to have Some compelling reason for customers to upgrade. I don’t think they did enough from 006 to 007 and I don’t expect they will do enough from 007 to S3. 

I have my view for S’s attraction but does Leica realize it? 

I will only vote with my wallet. I didn’t even remotely interested in SL but paid SL2  because it offers compelling reason for me to do so. I hope S3 will do the same.

finger crossed. 

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1 hour ago, peterv said:

I understand what you guys are saying, but for me, I don’t think an S3 will be a hard sell, eventually.

We all have different user cases and I am right in the middle of dumbing down the amount of equipment I take photographs with. I am planning on selling my last Sony, an RX100 mark one since I really cannot find any use for it now that I have the iPhone XS Max. Last weekend I was at a premier in a cinema setting and the only time I wanted to grab for my RX100 was when I wanted to take a tele-shot of some cast and crew members who were in front of the screen up on the stage.

But for all the other stuff, it was much more handy for me - and also much more rewarding I might add - to use the iPhone XS Max. It represents sort of a pinnacle in today’s computational photography, is constantly online and all social photography can be shared instantly, so that will cover photography for 95% of the world population in the 2020s.

For my own personal photography I can perfectly well make do with the S007 and later on with an S3. That is two quite opposite image making machines that I get to know very well and know what I can expect. I think this will help to gain a consistent look throughout my work.

But again, I understand what you’re saying, it’s just to say there are also different users here representing a different target market which does not have to think about clients, commercial shoots or return on investment.

The more I thank about that the more I cannot justify owning a regular mirrorless camera such as an SL2 for everyday photography. My Huawei p20Pro or a newer IPhone is just perfect for a Web output. At the same time I cannot imagine how to live without a Leica M, a pure photography instrument, or an S camera  which I like better than any other Medium Format Camera. So for my photography future I envision myself having only a Leica M, S 007 and a smartphone. 
 

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2 hours ago, ynp said:

The more I thank about that the more I cannot justify owning a regular mirrorless camera such as an SL2 for everyday photography. My Huawei p20Pro or a newer IPhone is just perfect for a Web output. At the same time I cannot imagine how to live without a Leica M, a pure photography instrument, or an S camera  which I like better than any other Medium Format Camera. So for my photography future I envision myself having only a Leica M, S 007 and a smartphone. 
 

For international traveling, M and SL2 with M glasses and a tele-zoom. 

For US and rent car trip, S007 and SL2 with a set of S glasses and a wide or tele L zoom.

I almost never use phone if I have camera around me, it against my philosophy of photography.  

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4 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

I'm not sure what "better" means. We'll have to see, but I think the output of the 007 is already gorgeous. 

If the sensor is based on the SL2 tech, I am not sure about the colors as well. I found the SL2 to be very different than the original SL, the S 007 and even the M10.

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9 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

I have the 007 and three lenses. I bought the SL2 and now cannot envision buying an S3. The S line gives a distinct look and I use it for that. I don't think that more MP would add much, if anything, to the 007. Maybe the S3 will provide clean files up to 6400 (heard on YouTube, I think), but it would still seem to be a hard sale. 

Full frame S video at 4K. Neat, but IBIS will have to be CRAZY good.

 

I’ll likely stick with the 007. Yep.

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12 hours ago, ynp said:

For me my CL alongside the m9 works better for vacations . It’s a lighter setup and I usually print up to A2. 

Make sense. My previous set up was RX1 with M10p(M240p/M240/M9). I still miss that RX1. I will see how I like SL2/M10 setup down to the road. 

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I just did test on all my S glasses on SL2 on tripod. They are all sharp to FF corner wide open. 70 reach peak at f5.6 cross frame. 35/100/120 around f4. but all of them resolve 47M sensor well and there is no corner issue. For peak sharpness with no DOF limitation, f5.6 is magic, f8 is gold and f11 you can notice downgrade clearly.   I am not a pixel PP but very picky during technical test as I need understand my gear right to use it wisely. (I also tested all my M glasses)

I believe SL summicron will be sharper at wider aperture as Leica claim they were build for 100M FF sensor. I trust them from what I saw on their MTF. Based on my thinking, they don't need f4~5.6 to reach peak but who really care, I don't, as I need DOF most of time for cross frame sharpness. For portrait, S glasses are sharp enough for most of frame start from WO even at 47M. 

In short, S glasses are more than enough to cover 64M 45X30 sensor.  There is no flaw on whole set of S. I can't even pick which one or ones are sharper during evaluation if I am at f5.6. 

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On 12/13/2019 at 2:34 PM, ZHNL said:

I just did test on all my S glasses on SL2 on tripod. They are all sharp to FF corner wide open. 70 reach peak at f5.6 cross frame. 35/100/120 around f4. but all of them resolve 47M sensor well and there is no corner issue. For peak sharpness with no DOF limitation, f5.6 is magic, f8 is gold and f11 you can notice downgrade clearly.   I am not a pixel PP but very picky during technical test as I need understand my gear right to use it wisely. (I also tested all my M glasses)

I believe SL summicron will be sharper at wider aperture as Leica claim they were build for 100M FF sensor. I trust them from what I saw on their MTF. Based on my thinking, they don't need f4~5.6 to reach peak but who really care, I don't, as I need DOF most of time for cross frame sharpness. For portrait, S glasses are sharp enough for most of frame start from WO even at 47M. 

In short, S glasses are more than enough to cover 64M 45X30 sensor.  There is no flaw on whole set of S. I can't even pick which one or ones are sharper during evaluation if I am at f5.6. 

f5.6 is magic, f8 is gold and f11 you can notice downgrade clearly.

 

what percentage change in contrast, resolution, acutance etc.. do you see between magic and gold?

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2 hours ago, albertknappmd said:

f5.6 is magic, f8 is gold and f11 you can notice downgrade clearly.

 

what percentage change in contrast, resolution, acutance etc.. do you see between magic and gold?

Yes, I can see minor acutance loss in center between f5.6 and f8, but then A few click of smart sharpening in LR can compensate such minor diffraction loss. For S, f8 still have no sign of diffraction.  

I can’t detail each lens behavior as some do have slightly field curvature. At f8, there is no weak middle field, no weak corner out of any S glasses I have that is why I say gold. At f5.6, all lens reach or keep its peak cover most of frame, but I do see 70mm’s extreme corner in FF slightly improved further at f8, but that is a diagonal infinity test extreme corner, hardly relevant to real world usage. 

i can’t quantify them how much % change between f5.6 and f8. For me, I will not hesitate use even f11 on SL2 if I need cover DOF and f16 on S.(for 37M current S) However, once you know lens performance at each stop on certain platform, you can utilize that in field: for example, for infinity only, I can use 120APO at f4 instead of f8 for better hand holding, there is no point to use f8 and be there. with 70mm, depend on light and how much detail I want cover in the extreme corner, there are more considerations to put within f4~f8 under same situation. 

again, some people may be more picky than me, some may never care so much in detail about their gears. As long as they happy and enjoy the process. :)

Edited by ZHNL
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This tracks very well with my experience (on the S at least)...on the S I find the 70mm is better corner to corner at 8 or 11 than 5.6, but if you are not concerned about the edges, it is great at wider stops as well. The 120mm is pretty spectacular even wide open, but by f4 it does not really get better other than by DOF.

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