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[peterv]

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I understand what you’re saying and maybe I am too much of an optimist, but I can’t help thinking that there will be a market for a few thousand S DSLR’s a year for the coming decade, will that be enough? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Leica keeps single lens reflex photography alive just like they did with rangefinder photography.

[albertknappmd]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Another example of the zoom as the weak(er) sister in the lineup.  Too bad it couldn’t be faster, or with OIS, constant length when zooming, better edge performance, and less sample variation.  The SL zooms have since narrowed the gap with sister primes.

Jeff

Jeff

Technically it is the "weaker" sister...

BUT... if you know the zoom's quirks and foibles, you can readily obviate or mitigate them with judicious cropping.

The lens is just too practical and useful particularly in the field where you cannot carry five primes in a backpack unless you are as fit as a Navy Seal or a member of Delta force...

When properly done, you cannot tell the difference.

Albert

 

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[BernardC]

17 hours ago, Jeff S said:

especially if the S3, as some suspect, is the end of the line

That's classic FUD! I love the added 'some" instead of the implied 'I'.

Logically, that decision hasn't been made yet (and doesn't need to be for a while), which means that no one knows the future of the S line. And yet "some" (not saying who) "suspect" (let's not mince our words!) that it may be the last. Presumably these are the same people who suspected that the S2, S-007, and S-007 were also the last of the line?

Realistically, the future of the S line depends on quite a few factors, many of which are external. Will commercial photography move back into the studio? Will large format cinematography continue to grow? Will there be a source for medium-format sensors? frankly, I don't think that the opinions of the few hobbyists who bought into the system will matter much. It's a professional system, we are just the cherry on the cake, as far as Leica is concerned.

[Jeff S]

38 minutes ago, BernardC said:

That's classic FUD! I love the added 'some" instead of the implied 'I'.

Logically, that decision hasn't been made yet (and doesn't need to be for a while), which means that no one knows the future of the S line. And yet "some" (not saying who) "suspect" (let's not mince our words!) that it may be the last. Presumably these are the same people who suspected that the S2, S-007, and S-007 were also the last of the line?

Realistically, the future of the S line depends on quite a few factors, many of which are external. Will commercial photography move back into the studio? Will large format cinematography continue to grow? Will there be a source for medium-format sensors? frankly, I don't think that the opinions of the few hobbyists who bought into the system will matter much. It's a professional system, we are just the cherry on the cake, as far as Leica is concerned.

I've expressed my doubts directly in various posts, as have others.  Hence, some.  Simple.

The contextual considerations and reasoning have also been discussed, including my statement that you conveniently omitted from your quote, "in its current DSLR configuration".  It's quite possible that the system could evolve in another direction. Of course one knows except insiders.. duh, news flash... but the forum wouldn't exist without some speculation and entertainment....which is especially easy while waiting a year and half between announcement and expected launch.

Carry on.

Jeff

Edited November 2, 2019 by Jeff S

[BernardC]

I appreciate that some people worry that almost any camera will be the last of its line. You read the same things about the new 1Dx and 5D.

Is it necessary to repeat those worries in each and every thread?

You should appreciate the camera for what it is right now: a great system with unique features, relatively affordable (at street prices), with a full lens line-up, offering great image quality. Take it or leave it. It makes no sense to worry about what may come in 10 years, there isn't a system that is 100% safe on that front. You can wish for extra lenses, but if there's a lens/feature that you really need, and that is available elsewhere (and can't be adapted), you should look at that system instead. It's pointless to buy a system now on the hope that the feature you really wanted will be available in the future, especially if that feature is available right now from a competitor.

[Jeff S]

29 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I appreciate that some people worry that almost any camera will be the last of its line. You read the same things about the new 1Dx and 5D.

 

Unlike the Leica R (I owned one), which died without much advance discussion.  

The S is a great system, and I’ve said so for years, including hope that the gorgeous OVF lives on.  No worries though, just observations during interesting industry times and changes.  And, yes, I buy (and rent/demo) and use what works for me, including the S006 for a bit. The rest is just forum discussion, which you’re equally free to engage or ignore.  It’s all fine with me.  

Jeff

 

[peterv]

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3 hours ago, BernardC said:

Realistically, the future of the S line depends on quite a few factors, many of which are external. Will commercial photography move back into the studio? Will large format cinematography continue to grow? Will there be a source for medium-format sensors? frankly, I don't think that the opinions of the few hobbyists who bought into the system will matter much. It's a professional system, we are just the cherry on the cake, as far as Leica is concerned.

You’re right, no one knows and indeed most likely Leica doesn’t know either, they don’t know how the S3 is going to be received. Like someone said further up, the decision about keeping the system alive doesn’t have to be made right now. And like Jeff S says, we know nothing and some of us like to speculate 🙂

[Stuart Richardson]

The take it or leave it approach is great if you are an amateur, it is less fun as a pro with thousands invested in a lens system, sold on the basis of being Leica's new top of the line, pro system. I invested very heavily in the system for my business, including selling a full Nikon setup, film cameras from Hasselblad and Rollei as well as every bit and piece I could part with to get in. While I am still happy with the cameras, I am disappointed that the promise of the S system never really came through quite as it was sold at the time. The professional service and turnaround times have mostly been forgotten. I called the S service hotline at Leica Germany the other day and asked about a few things regarding the camera and the customer service rep said he did not know much about the technical aspects of the S system. This is their own pro hotline... We are going on more than ten years without a resolution bump (the announced by delayed S3 does not count until you can actually buy it), and we have not had a major new lens or accessory for six years. There are no teleconverters, no long lenses, no wide angle tilt shifts, no compact primes, no integrated flash transmitters etc. It is a testament to the strength of the cameras and lenses that they are even still competitive at all, given how little apparent development Leica has given to them in the last few years. I find the "speculation" as you put it is an important part of planning my future equipment for my business....will the S3 be a refresh for the system, or the last hurrah as they move forward with a different style of cameras like the SL. It seems pretty clear to me that the future is with the SL system, but we will of course see. I am hedging my bets and will most likely get an SL2 and see how well it serves my needs. At least I will be able to use the lenses.

 

P.S. The great street prices are also not so great if you bought your cameras new and at or near retail price. That is another consideration...if you got in the S system early, it is extremely hard to get out without taking a brutal loss on every component. If the S gets revitalized, than hopefully some of those values will climb a bit.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[IkarusJohn]

My perception is that Leica is a relatively single focused company.  It releases the M(240) and says that the M system will always be the heart of the company; then it identifies APS-C TL2 & CL cameras as having an ideal format for the prosumer (larger than M4/3 and lenses a better size and cheaper to make than full frame); then the SL, and the commitment to the L mount; the S3 gets announced along the way, but they get distracted by the release of the SL2.

The S remains the flagship for the company, I’m sure - but after the issues with prior releases (delay, unavailability and quality issues), I’d like to think that the S3 is being perfected.  It’s a small, but hopefully important market for Leica.  I don’t have an S, so I’m not going to comment on the quality of the various lenses or the system - I’ve only held one, and I’m certainly not going to predict the system’s demise (that would be unkind to S users).  But the consequences of dumping the S line would reverberate around the customer base in ways that I’m sure Leica can understand.

[Stuart Richardson]

That makes sense, but I guess that I am very touchy about these things...twice bitten, many times shy! I got run through the ringer with a Leica R system and a DMR, as well as with the Rollei 6008/Hy6 system, both of which were high end, top of the line pro systems whose manufacturers kept saying would be supported, both of which were unceremoniously dumped with little warning or fanfare after a few years of minimal development. That is why I am so attuned to this.

[xiaubauu2009]

The SL2 is just a rebadge S1h... so Leica thinks it's more profitable to sell rebadge camera ala Hasselblad (nothing wrong with that, except some prestige lost), then it's the path they are taking. 

No matter whether S line continues or not, I think the second hand market for one of these are getting better and better. it is still very interesting to use a solidly built MF with bar-non viewfinder SLR system, admist all these EVF cameras on the market. And the price for one is a just a  brand new high end EVF 135 camera, I say it's a great used market machine. Not so as a brand new purchase. 

[IkarusJohn]

47 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

The SL2 is just a rebadge S1h... so Leica thinks it's more profitable to sell rebadge camera ala Hasselblad (nothing wrong with that, except some prestige lost), then it's the path they are taking. 

No matter whether S line continues or not, I think the second hand market for one of these are getting better and better. it is still very interesting to use a solidly built MF with bar-non viewfinder SLR system, admist all these EVF cameras on the market. And the price for one is a just a  brand new high end EVF 135 camera, I say it's a great used market machine. Not so as a brand new purchase. 

Source?

[darylgo]

9 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The take it or leave it approach is great if you are an amateur, it is less fun as a pro with thousands invested in a lens system, sold on the basis of being Leica's new top of the line, pro system. I invested very heavily in the system for my business, including selling a full Nikon setup, film cameras from Hasselblad and Rollei as well as every bit and piece I could part with to get in. While I am still happy with the cameras, I am disappointed that the promise of the S system never really came through quite as it was sold at the time. The professional service and turnaround times have mostly been forgotten. I called the S service hotline at Leica Germany the other day and asked about a few things regarding the camera and the customer service rep said he did not know much about the technical aspects of the S system. This is their own pro hotline... We are going on more than ten years without a resolution bump (the announced by delayed S3 does not count until you can actually buy it), and we have not had a major new lens or accessory for six years. There are no teleconverters, no long lenses, no wide angle tilt shifts, no compact primes, no integrated flash transmitters etc. It is a testament to the strength of the cameras and lenses that they are even still competitive at all, given how little apparent development Leica has given to them in the last few years. I find the "speculation" as you put it is an important part of planning my future equipment for my business....will the S3 be a refresh for the system, or the last hurrah as they move forward with a different style of cameras like the SL. It seems pretty clear to me that the future is with the SL system, but we will of course see. I am hedging my bets and will most likely get an SL2 and see how well it serves my needs. At least I will be able to use the lenses.

 

P.S. The great street prices are also not so great if you bought your cameras new and at or near retail price. That is another consideration...if you got in the S system early, it is extremely hard to get out without taking a brutal loss on every component. If the S gets revitalized, than hopefully some of those values will climb a bit.

Stuart,

I wish Leica would read your post, it summed up the S system well.  As an amateur I am now putting my S system on hold, every few uses results in another repair issue with sensors and lenses.  I'll wait to see what the future brings before making any further decisions.  The M system has been reliable for me, the mechanical lenses are welcome respite from all the electronics.  

I wonder if Leica feels the system is mature with the inclusion of adapters from Hasselblad, Mamiya and others.  There were several lenses in the original lineup that were never introduced but the Hasselblad H lenses could be used with almost native functionality.  I am not making excuses for Leica, rather trying to make sense of this completely ignored system and their thinking.  Several years ago the T system had very depressed lens prices, Leica also appeared to be ignoring it.   The TL2/CL introductions brought the lens values up quckly.   Of course there is no comparison between these systems however it does show they can go through cycles.  It is with great disbelief that I see used S lenses selling in the range of Nikon or Canon glass, the S lenses being some of the best made lenses save for the issues.  Leica is very late with the S3, I am hoping they are finalizing the debugging which would be worth the wait for a reliable product.      

[xiaubauu2009]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:02 AM, IkarusJohn said:

Source?

No source, but Dpreview Chris Niccolls on youtube seems to hint the same thing too... so... Anyway, just look at the specs...dont' need any source.... rebadge with some feature bump and feature taken away. Anyway, what's wrong about rebadge, prestige brand such as Hassy do the same thing. 

[IkarusJohn]

21 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

No source, but Dpreview Chris Niccolls on youtube seems to hint the same thing too... so... Anyway, just look at the specs...dont' need any source.... rebadge with some feature bump and feature taken away. Anyway, what's wrong about rebadge, prestige brand such as Hassy do the same thing. 

I'm not sure that the Hasselblad Solar & Lunar is a sign of anything but desperation.  The H series and X1D cameras are not rebadged anything - is Hasselblad still offering the rebadged Sonys?  They only list the X, H & V systems on their website ...

Now that the SL2 has been released, what makes you think it's a rebadged Panasonic?  Looks like a Leica design to me, albeit with Panasonic componentry.  That's a long way from rebadging, in my view.

[xiaubauu2009]

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I'm not sure that the Hasselblad Solar & Lunar is a sign of anything but desperation.  The H series and X1D cameras are not rebadged anything - is Hasselblad still offering the rebadged Sonys?  They only list the X, H & V systems on their website ...

Now that the SL2 has been released, what makes you think it's a rebadged Panasonic?  Looks like a Leica design to me, albeit with Panasonic componentry.  That's a long way from rebadging, in my view.

Ok, rebadge might be too strong a word and equaling it to Hassy is really not that good. Hahahah.

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

Anyway, just look at the specs...dont' need any source.... rebadge with some feature bump and feature taken away.

By that logic, every Nikon is a rebadged Sony!

I get why DPR does that. They want to provide "inside info," even if they have none and are just rephrasing the press release. We all hear the same scuttlebutt from "my sales guy told me..." It's hardly ever true, and it's always motivated. They need to make a sale, not to be your friend.

Everyone in the industry is buying from the same large pool of suppliers. The only one that doesn't, arguably, is Canon. People complain that they don't rebadge enough!

[xiaubauu2009]

10 hours ago, BernardC said:

By that logic, every Nikon is a rebadged Sony!

I get why DPR does that. They want to provide "inside info," even if they have none and are just rephrasing the press release. We all hear the same scuttlebutt from "my sales guy told me..." It's hardly ever true, and it's always motivated. They need to make a sale, not to be your friend.

Everyone in the industry is buying from the same large pool of suppliers. The only one that doesn't, arguably, is Canon. People complain that they don't rebadge enough!

good point. Hahah.

[Stuart Richardson]

Yeah, while I agree there might be panasonic components and those from other companies, the SL2 is far from the S1R/H. It has a totally different body, control system and interface. Different color science and sensor tuning, different capabilities (the SL2 will AF with S lenses, which is relevant to us, while the Panasonics will not), most likely physical differences in the sensor as well (microlenses and a thinner cover glass than the Panasonic). It is smaller and lighter than the Panasonic and generally just a different camera. I shoot an S1 and have handled the SL2...they feel like quite different cameras. Both very nice, but different. A Rolls Royce Phantom, Aston Martin DBS, a Land Rover Discovery and a Dodge Ram all share the same ZF 8 speed transmission. That does not mean that a Rolls Royce is a rebadge of a Dodge Ram. Just because a camera uses a Panasonic technology or Sony sensor it does not mean it is a rebadge. Frankly this line of reasoning gets brought up a lot and it is really tiresome. It is also extremely offensive to people working at these companies who are innovating their own camera designs. The Hasselblad X series has little resemblance to any other camera system even if they are using a Sony sensor and even if their lenses are not being manufactured by blonde haired blue eyed Swedes or Germans. Get over it, modern manufacturing and product design uses components sourced from all over the world. If it didn't, we would likely have far more expensive, far less capable cameras with less choice.

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