Difference in quality between Leitz Canada and German lenses?

[plasticman]

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I think I have the v3 (so difficult to keep track of the version numbers) - the DR - which I use on an M2.

But it can’t be used on the M10 - which is what I wanted to ‘soften’ with an old lens.

I thought about the rigid 50 instead, but just duplicating the optical formula of the DR felt a bit lame. 
Maybe an old Summarit is what I should be looking for? But then they seem to suffer badly from scratches, haze and fogging…

I miss the times when it was still possible to handle and try lenses before buying…

[a.noctilux]

6 minutes ago, plasticman said:

the DR - which I use on an M2.

But it can’t be used on the M10

With care you can use your DR (SOMNI) on M10,

if not done first put the focus ring to about 1.5m then mount the DR on your M10,

turn the focus ring toward infinity, if you reach infinity, good,

if the ring stop is about 10m, not lost affair, some very small filing can be done without loosing the DR use for film M.

 

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[Danner]

On 10/9/2019 at 7:13 AM, Ko.Fe. said:

It is offensive and disrespectful, indeed. I personally know people who worked for ELC.

Canada saved Leica from disappearing. And it was best suited place for precise optical elements manufacturing, due to Midland location on seismological stable plato.

And, Canadian craftsmanship is highly regarded in the US.  The Ford and Chrysler vehicles manufactured in St. Thomas and Brampton, for example, are regarded as the higher quality units from both marques, and preferred over their US built counterparts.  

[plasticman]

I found what looks to be a pristine Summicron Rigid on a local online dealer, and bought it after getting assurances from the seller about the internal clarity of the lens. 

Thanks for the advice after my post, always valuable to get some other perspectives. 

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

On 10/9/2019 at 12:15 PM, nwphil said:

regarding the 35 cron v4, I actually can confirm that - I bought a v4 and it was falling apart, literally. the focusing was a bit ...tight and slow towards the end. Took it to a local repair store.and they found out that the mounting barrel was cracked, hence being tightened a bit over. Ended  being returned to seller....and got the v6 instead

 

Broke a 35mm Summicron Asph once.  The aperture ring would just spin freely.  In fixing it, in circa 2009, the well know tech lamented that modern Leica lens were all full of plastic.  I know nothing about the current lineup, and I know the version 4, King of Bokeh had a reputation of some weak spots.  The only Summicron I have now is version 3 made in Canada and it's solid.  Current Voigtlander stuff is really well made too.  

[Jean-Michel]

Whether add in Germany, Canada, or Portugal the M lenses are of exactly the same quality. The “Made in … “ sometimes only means the the lens had some final assembly and engraved and boxed in that country. Same applies to a whole lot of M bodies. 

[RayD28]

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I think any 30 year-old lens that is functioning properly was quality built.  Even if it needs lube and adjustments every 15 years or so.  

[a.noctilux]

When all was made in Wetzlar, no plastic (not yet "invented" by then), only metal and glass (maybe paint ?).

I have one (two ! ) Summar 5cm made in the 1930's that work wonder.

 

I use also later made in Canada M and lenses, they work fine,

less the infamous 35mm Summicron IV with front part "unsquared" from hard use.

[lct]

Plastic parts in Canada made Summicron 35/2 v4 and 50/2 v4 are a documented issue. See 

 

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Plastic parts in Canada made Summicron 35/2 v4 and 50/2 v4 are a documented issue.

But does anyone know for sure if the v4 German lenses have metal parts? There doesn't seem to be anything definitive in that thread either, just a link to the video that is also at the top of this thread where the claim is made by the technician. Is it a Canada/Germany difference or perhaps a V4/V5 difference? And if it's just v4, were the lenses made in both factories at the same time, or did production shift completely from Canada to Germany, which may have coincided with some internal changes?

[lct]

35 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

But does anyone know for sure if the v4 German lenses have metal parts? There doesn't seem to be anything definitive in that thread either, just a link to the video that is also at the top of this thread where the claim is made by the technician. Is it a Canada/Germany difference or perhaps a V4/V5 difference? And if it's just v4, were the lenses made in both factories at the same time, or did production shift completely from Canada to Germany, which may have coincided with some internal changes?

Interesting to read Marco Cavina on this (link). 
Free translation:
« (...) Moving on to the next 7-lens model type 11310 launched in 1979 and made in Canada, it is necessary to consider that the new corporate structure and the profound general economic crisis of the previous years had forced to cut redundant costs wherever possible, and packaging the new Summicron-M 35mm 1:2 with 7-lens scheme and 2 doublets (vs 6 lenses with 1 doublet of the previous 11309) an attempt was made to balance the additional costs of the optical unit by inserting synthetic elements into the mechanical frame, using new resins (...). As can be seen, the resin components do not have particularly stressed structural functions nor are they involved in elements subject to friction and wear such as helicoids, however there are various baskets and ring nuts inside the structure, elements whose material, during the course of the decades, it presented unforeseen problems of "aging" at the time when its use was decided and which decreed a structural fragility that exposed it to breakage. As soon as the manufacturer took note of this evolution of the materials, he reacted promptly, we must acknowledge it, eliminating the synthetic components from the barrel and contextually, taking advantage of the course of work also to recalculate the optical scheme (...) »

[adan]

it is perhaps too bad Leitz/Leica, when looking around for a partner in Japan, didn't latch onto Kyocera (Kyoto Ceramics), a brilliant materials company. Might have helped with everything from plastics selections to M6 chrome-bubbles to the M9 sensor-glass.

Unfortunately,Yashica/Zeiss/Contax got there first.

[edstock]

I have been using my Summilux 75 f1.4 (Canada) for years. It was designed by Mandler in Canada. It produces beautiful images and I made a lot of money off some those images. It is heavy, it is solid, it rotates smoothly, and not being a Leica lens specialist I won't take it apart to see if it has "plastic" innards. I don't care and Leica lore tells that this lens is one to the great.

[plasticman]

13 hours ago, edstock said:

not being a Leica lens specialist I won't take it apart to see if it has "plastic" innards. I don't care and Leica lore tells that this lens is one to the great.

This is an admirable attitude - why worry if everything is going fine with your equipment?

My interest in reviving the question was because all other things being equal if I was about to buy a lens, and there might exist differences invisible to both the seller and the buyer, but which could impact the reliability or longevity of the lens, then it would be preferable to choose the lens that was less likely to have a problem in the future.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread - I speak here as someone who has suffered this specific fault in my Summicron 35, which entailed an expensive fix.

Anyone reading the thread in the future should note that no-one appears to be certain that the equivalent German version of the Summicron from this era has metal internal parts, so the entire discussion is unresolved.

I circumvented the issue by taking Adan's advice - what I was really after (without initially realizing it) was an earlier version anyway.

[lct]

27 minutes ago, plasticman said:

[...] no-one appears to be certain that the equivalent German version of the Summicron from this era has metal internal parts [...]

I did read Marco Cavina in that sense so i bought a German made 35/2 v4 to replace my old Canadian version which was beginning to fall apart (first pic). Not sure if this was related to plastic parts though. The second pic shows plastic parts in a broken Canada made 35/2 v4. Was not mine fortunately. FWIW.

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[grahamc]

My 1993 German made 35:2 v4 makes a noticeably plasticky sounding (less loud and clicky) sound than all of my other lenses when you move through the apertures.  

Not sure if that relates to the plastic internal parts in the Canada / Germany question or if this discussion is referring to other parts 

[lct]

50 minutes ago, grahamc said:

My 1993 German made 35:2 v4 makes a noticeably plasticky sounding (less loud and clicky) sound than all of my other lenses when you move through the apertures. 

I have not this feeling with my German copies but they have been CLA'd recently.

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I have not this feeling with my German copies but they have been CLA'd recently.

Interesting!  Mind me asking the first 3 digits of the serial ?    Mine is 363 xxxx .    If I had to guess I'd say mine 'sounds' plastic compared to my other lenses including my 50:2 from the same year.  Or it could just be well-used and that explains the not as loud or 'clicky' sound .

My German 50:2 v4 overall feels super plastic build design. So now I have a few more lenses I realise this is definitely a characteristic of this era as you guys have mentioned, although I never noticed it before I had others to compare  

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by grahamc

[Capuccino-Muffin]

2 hours ago, grahamc said:

My 1993 German made 35:2 v4 makes a noticeably plasticky sounding (less loud and clicky) sound than all of my other lenses when you move through the apertures.  

Not sure if that relates to the plastic internal parts in the Canada / Germany question or if this discussion is referring to other parts 

Mine too

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[lct]

13 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Interesting!  Mind me asking the first 3 digits of the serial ?    Mine is 363 xxxx .    If I had to guess I'd say mine 'sounds' plastic compared to my other lenses including my 50:2 from the same year.  Or it could just be well-used and that explains the not as loud or 'clicky' sound .

My German 50:2 v4 overall feels super plastic build design. So now I have a few more lenses I realise this is definitely a characteristic of this era as you guys have mentioned, although I never noticed it before I had others to compare  

Interesting indeed. I have a German made 50/2 v4 in as new condition that does not feel plasticky at all. My German made 35/2 v4's are earlier than yours (3453*** & 3553***) but both has been CLA'd recently, this is perhaps an explanation.