Difference in quality between Leitz Canada and German lenses?

[egrossman]

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This video is of the repair of a Canadian 50mm Summicron:

https://youtu.be/4S_wILraGhI

Watch from 16:50 through 18:00 and the technician comments that the Canadian version of this lens has plastic internal components (inferior) while the German version is all made of metal.

We all know that the German lenses typically command a premium in the second hand market; I never actually thought that there was a difference in build quality between two versions of the same lens.

Erik

[nwphil]

42 minutes ago, egrossman said:

This video is of the repair of a Canadian 50mm Summicron:

https://youtu.be/4S_wILraGhI

Watch from 16:50 through 18:00 and the technician comments that the Canadian version of this lens has plastic internal components (inferior) while the German version is all made of metal.

We all know that the German lenses typically command a premium in the second hand market; I never actually thought that there was a difference in build quality between two versions of the same lens.

Erik

Far from being an expert, but:

I read somewhere there are indeed cheaper versions made - and not only for the 50. Canada was chosen for cheaper labor, and if I recall well, they indeed used lighter and cheaper materials...

 

Aside that, the topic is like a tidal wave:

2016:

2012:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3159385

 

2001:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/canada-vs-germany.22150/

...and there are plenty more; this is just a quick sample of thread's title copy&paste results in google search bar

((stepping out to grab some pop-corn and wait for the "movie" to start))

Edited October 8, 2019 by nwphil

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[egrossman]

Thanks. I read all three threads and there is a recurrent theme that there is “no discernible qualitative difference” between Canadian and German made lenses. The video I posted suggests otherwise.

 

[pedaes]

21 minutes ago, nwphil said:

Far from being an expert, but:

I read somewhere there are indeed cheaper versions made - and not only for the 50. Canada was chosen for cheaper labor, and if I recall well, they indeed used lighter and cheaper materials...

 

Aside that, the topic is like a tidal wave:

2016:

2012:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3159385

 

2001:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/canada-vs-germany.22150/

...and there are plenty more; this is just a quick sample of thread's title copy&paste results in google search bar

((stepping out to grab some pop-corn and wait for the "movie" to start))

I think if you read your Leica history, Canada was not chosen for cheaper labour, but was set up in case anything happened to the Wetzlar factory and to be close to the US market. Indeed many of the initial technicians moved from Germany. The quality of the Canada Midland cameras and lenses is excellent. Remember many parts were sent from Germany. 

It was also the base of Dr.Mandler, who designed many of the great and legendary lenses in the Midland facility. See photo thread "Show us some Mandler magic"

The Midland managers also kept the M cameras in production when Germany wanted to stop production, so without the Canadian plant there probably would not be any M cameras today - we have much to be grateful to them for.

FWIW

Edited October 8, 2019 by pedaes

[nwphil]

8 minutes ago, egrossman said:

Thanks. I read all three threads and there is a recurrent theme that there is “no discernible qualitative difference” between Canadian and German made lenses. The video I posted suggests otherwise.

 

I think the idea it's about a lens version itself, or a production series, but others will chime in and might have  better info

[nwphil]

3 minutes ago, pedaes said:

I think if you read your Leica history, Canada was not chosen for cheaper labour, but was set up in case anything happened to the Wetzlar factory and to be close to the US market. Indeed many of the initial technicians moved from Germany. The quality of the Canada Midland cameras and lenses is excellent. Remember many parts were sent from Germany.

It was also the base of Dr.Mandler, who designed many of the great and legendary lenses in the Midland facility.See photo thread "Show us some Mandler magic"

FWIW

Thanks for rectifying....but makes me think that if was just that, then why not set factory in the US? the "made in USA" would probably be more "influential" - no disrespect to Canada intended

[pedaes]

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1 minute ago, nwphil said:

Thanks for rectifying....but makes me think that if was just that, then why not set factory in the US? the "made in USA" would probably be more "influential" - no disrespect to Canada intended

You need to delve into the history, but I think Canada probably offered financial incentives and Leica had a strong US base in the New York Office. This then starts to broaden, and you ought to learn how the Leica family managed to get Jewish workers out of Germany during WWII by 'transfering' them to the NY Office. Google "Leica Freedom Train". 

[nwphil]

found this meanwhile:

http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2012/05/ernst-leitz-canada-limited.html

[Ko.Fe.]

14 hours ago, nwphil said:

Thanks for rectifying....but makes me think that if was just that, then why not set factory in the US? the "made in USA" would probably be more "influential" - no disrespect to Canada intended

It is offensive and disrespectful, indeed. I personally know people who worked for ELC.

Canada saved Leica from disappearing. And it was best suited place for precise optical elements manufacturing, due to Midland location on seismological stable plato.

[frame-it]

 

[Herr Barnack]

My 1.0 Noctilux was made in Canada.  No quality complaints here after 11 years of use. 

It's as solid as the day I took it out of the box and image quality has not eroded.  What else is there?

[AndreasG]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Herr Barnack:

My 1.0 Noctilux was made in Canada.  No quality complaints here after 11 years of use. 

It's as solid as the day I took it out of the box and image quality has not eroded.  What else is there?

Same I can say for my Summicron 50, Made in Canada, which I bought in 1986, still perfect, mechanically and optically!

[nwphil]

36 minutes ago, AndreasG said:

Same I can say for my Summicron 50, Made in Canada, which I bought in 1986, still perfect, mechanically and optically!

not only I have lenses made in Canada, but a bino made in Portugal; no issues whatsoever with either - QC it's still Leica; skilled craftsmanship can exist anywhere too

The reality is, some people perceive it differently. Not too long ago, most american cars were borderline junk - ever hear the acronym for FORD? - found on road dead...

another bias with almost anything from either side of the Atlantic Ocean - not everyone for sure, but know many people, that always think the grass is greener on the other side.

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

It is offensive and disrespectful, indeed. I personally know people who worked for ELC.

Canada saved Leica from disappearing. And it was best suited place for precise optical elements manufacturing, due to Midland location on seismological stable plato.

sorry you think that way - to me you are taking more offense than needed or even intended - none at all, but I always said, offense cannot be given has to be taken.

I have no issues with products manufactured in Canada btw, if that matters

Edited October 9, 2019 by nwphil

[egrossman]

My original comment was only that it appears that at least some of the lenses made in Canada contain inferior plastic components as a cost saving measure as compared to the same lenses made in Germany. Given the price point of these lenses and the reputation for quality, I don’t understand why such a decision was made.

[nwphil]

10 minutes ago, egrossman said:

My original comment was only that it appears that at least some of the lenses made in Canada contain inferior plastic components as a cost saving measure as compared to the same lenses made in Germany. Given the price point of these lenses and the reputation for quality, I don’t understand why such a decision was made.

I have to go dig on the web again for the article I once read - yes, that saving measure is mentioned, but I believe was only with a few lenses - summarits and elmarits???. Maybe trying to boost sales with more affordable lenses, likely thinking that people would eventually upgrade, once bought into the system...

[TomB_tx]

One of the 35mm Summicron versions (ver 4?) did include an internal body made of polymer to save weight, but I thought it was produced that way in both Canada and Germany, until some failures occurred, blamed on either impact damage or torquing the front barrel to mount the lens. After that production changed to an aluminum inner body. Later production shifted to Germany, using the later aluminum body.

I wouldn’t call this an issue of Canada vs. German quality, but a design choice that didn’t fully consider real-world handling.

[adan]

I actually actively look for Canadian lenses from the peak (1977-1985) of the Mandler Era. I really like their rendering, and I've never had one break in 20 years. I did buy a 35 Summicron v.4 that already had the "unscrewing front" problem - but it was a complete non-issue unless one was silly enough to grab the lens hood only to mount/unmount the lens.

1) Leitz built a factory in the Western Hemisphere in 1952 primarily because the Wetzlar factory was dead in the sights of any Warsaw Pact invasion of West Germany, only about 100km/60 miles from the Fulda Gap through which Eastern-Bloc tanks could travel easily, and quite close to the major US command/air base at Rhein-Main (Frankfurt) - a prime target. They needed a back-up plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulda_Gap

A lot of the Midland employees were - German. Including the "Three Walters" who managed the installation.

Of note, all of North America (including Canada and Mexico) has generally been 28% or less of Leica's global market. They did not want to be close to the U.S. especially - they just wanted to be far away from Russia and East Germany.

2) Leitz chose Midland because the town did offer to pay for the factory - but also because it was in a non-nuclear country and somewhat remote. Not worth an H-bomb by itself. (Leitz was engaged in some military optics production during the Cold War - it's still in use as a part of Raytheon https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/optical_tech )

3) It is true that part of how ELC persuaded ELW to approve continued production of the M system after the M5 fiasco (1976-77) was by rationalizing the manufacturing overall (i.e. figuring out how to keep the price relatively competitive). The "reborn" M4-2 was simplified and made with revised materials (zinc top/bottom plates, rougher-but-tougher steel gears in place of brass, deletion of self-timer). And as camera production started up there were some QC problems (lenses had been the primary product of ELC). That is part of where the myth about "Canadian quality" comes from.

4) It is also true that production of the Mandler designs transferred back to Germany once the Solms factory was built, thus the "German" versions of the same lenses are also generally about 5-10 years younger. Wear and tear is wear and tear.

I do think some of the comments above reflect a general lack of knowledge about Leitz/Leica's actual history in the face of world events. In the Canadian era:

5) Leitz/Leica was not all that much of a premium brand, and rangefinders in particular were rapidly falling out of fashion, marketing-wise. SLRs were King of the Mountain. They were simply a German optics company trying to stay afloat (and very nearly not making it - several times) in the face of rising Japanese competition.

6) "Summarits" did not exist at all except for the tail end of the 50mm f/1.5 production in the 1950s. Today's Summarits didn't exist until 2007 or so. The "entry level" Leica M lens (to the extent that Leica produce "entry-level" at all) from 1960 until the mid-1990s (revival of the f/2.8 Elmar), was the 50mm Summicron. Leitz began building it "cheaper" even in Germany (the revised late-1960s-70s 6-element versions replacing the 1950s "Rigid" 7-element).

7) The era happened to coincide with the need to revamp wide-angles for the prospect of use with ttl metering. That is to say, retrofocus designs that left room for a metering arm or metering sight-line to the shutter (or SLR mirror), behind the rear element. It was a new ball game for Leitz to work with such designs, and the early efforts done in-house, and not by Minolta or Schneider, were - how shall I say this - less than optimal wide-open (21 and 28 Elmarit M, 28/35 Elmarit/Summicron R - nevertheless I never use anything but the 21 Elmarit). But that was a function of the time, not the place.

Edited October 9, 2019 by adan

[nwphil]

21 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

One of the 35mm Summicron versions (ver 4?) did include an internal body made of polymer to save weight, but I thought it was produced that way in both Canada and Germany, until some failures occurred, blamed on either impact damage or torquing the front barrel to mount the lens. After that production changed to an aluminum inner body. Later production shifted to Germany, using the later aluminum body.

I wouldn’t call this an issue of Canada vs. German quality, but a design choice that didn’t fully consider real-world handling.

regarding the 35 cron v4, I actually can confirm that - I bought a v4 and it was falling apart, literally. the focusing was a bit ...tight and slow towards the end. Took it to a local repair store.and they found out that the mounting barrel was cracked, hence being tightened a bit over. Ended  being returned to seller....and got the v6 instead

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by nwphil

[egrossman]

1 hour ago, nwphil said:

I have to go dig on the web again for the article I once read - yes, that saving measure is mentioned, but I believe was only with a few lenses - summarits and elmarits???. Maybe trying to boost sales with more affordable lenses, likely thinking that people would eventually upgrade, once bought into the system...

The example of the video I posted was of a 50mm summicron. 

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[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, nwphil said:

sorry you think that way - to me you are taking more offense than needed or even intended - none at all, but I always said, offense cannot be given has to be taken.

I have no issues with products manufactured in Canada btw, if that matters

Whatever your hidden beef with Canada is, I don't care.

As for your favor for  America vs Canada,  Leica had more than service in USA before  WWII, but during WWII their plant in USA was confiscated by USA.

How "influential" it was?