"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I'm doing those tests at the moment, as I have a photographic trip coming up in a couple of weeks. I have all the major players to compare (except the Sony R4. I have an R3) and it's plain that none of the systems are perfect and at the same time all are excellent.

The X1D has the highest overall image quality. And the files require almost no work except for aesthetic changes. And they're ridiculously pliable. Recovering several stops of shadow detail is trivial and introduces almost no issues in IQ. It's strength and weakness is it lens system. The lenses are spectacular but there are no zooms. I have a balloon flight as part of this trip so I think a great zoom might be useful as it was last time. The long exposure functionality of the X1D is without equal in any system. Startup time is not relevant on this trip and I get used to differences in focus speed pretty quickly and adjust accordingly. If the 35-75 were available it would be a no brainer. As it is I might just take the good but not epic HC35-90 for the balloon flight. It's huge though and a Z7 plus two zooms is lighter and with more range.

The S1R has the high resolution mode. It works and it's fabulous although limited to 1 second exposures. Continuous AF isn't great but single shot is awesome. Focuses in the dark and really quickly. IBIS is unbeleivable, although I'll be on a tripod 95% of the time for this trip. You can attach the Leica zooms which are wonderful but not in the same league as the primes. And there's not enough primes to build a system from. The 90-280 is good enough however the 16-35, although the best wide zoom I've ever used (and I have most of them) isn't as good as the Hasselblad primes. It's obvious to me anywhere outside the centre. The 24-90 is fine until about 80mm but again the primes are obviously better and I know I'd prefer the IQ on a trip like this.The S1R sensor is very good. Close to the Sony R3. Neither are close to the X1D sensor in malleability or colour response. Not even in the same ball park. And a complete S1R system with the three Leica zooms and a fast 50 (1,4) weights about the same as an X1D kit, assuming two bodies. So one has better IQ and one more speed/convenience. If there were a couple more SL primes available (16, 21 and 180mm) then the S1R/SL combo would be hard to beat.

I have discounted the Sony system as I despise the cameras usability, handing and near complete lack of weather sealing. I took that to Namibia last year and the images were fine but I didn't enjoy using the cameras at all. But there are many lens options and the cameras are tech giants. If you don't care about ergonomics, handing or robustness then it's the system to beat. Unfortunately those are my top three requirements in a camera body.

The closest 135 format sensor to the X1D (mirrorless) is the Z7 and it's a fabulous little camera with fabulous little lenses. It's still a half stop behind the X1D in sensor pushability and the long exposure functionality is poor but overall it's a great little system with a TON of lens options available using the FTZ adaptor. The primes aren't SL quality but they're very good indeed. The zooms don't draw as nicely as the SL ones but sharpness is very very close and they're TINY. The 14-30 is a jewel of a lens. The PF 70-300 was a real surprise. It's way too good for the money. Handling is really good.

I just got back from 10 days in Hong Kong. I took the S1R and SL zooms plus a CV50mm 1.2. In hindsight for that trip the Z7 kit would have been a better option just for the weight and convenience. But I like the S1R and it performed well, as did the SL zooms. HOWEVER, I can't stop comparing the files to what I get with the X1D and that's a problem. In this case not so much the sensor, although the colours will take some work to get right. I would have loved the S1R with some SL primes and there's just not enough. I even went to the HK Leica store on the off chance they'd have an SL50 I could buy. Missed it by a day...... 

If Leica make the SL2 to match the S1R then what they'll need is more lenses to keep up. For me, if there were more SL primes I'd be using the S1R/SL in two weeks. As it is I'm taking my X1D's and a Z7 to Myanmar in November.

Gordon

Gordon, how would you compare the EVF experience of the S1R to the Z7?  I found the Z7 viewing better (more ‘natural’) than the SL, despite the lower resolution (each demoed, not owned), but haven’t handled the S1R.  Maybe not a priority for you given mostly tripod use, but I’m curious.

Jeff

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Gordon, how would you compare the EVF experience of the S1R to the Z7?  I found the Z7 viewing better (more ‘natural’) than the SL, despite the lower resolution (each demoed, not owned), but haven’t handled the S1R.  Maybe not a priority for you given mostly tripod use, but I’m curious.

Jeff

I prefer the S1R and SL over the Z7. But that's personal preference and I had to tweak the S1R VF a bit (it's very very hot out of the box). I've heard of others preferring the Z EVF as well. I do notice a difference but none of them bother me in use and I no longer consider the differences in the EVFs as an important decision point like I did when the SL first arrived. The worst EVF I use is in the X1D mk1 and it's OK except in low light. The rest are fine all the time. The X1DII, SL and the S1R are still the ones I prefer the most. But I wouldn't say they're better.

Gordon

p.s. I really like the Z7 colours for landscapes but not for skin tones. But I have yet to really spend the time playing with the profiles for portraits.

Edited October 21, 2019 by FlashGordonPhotography

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[Jeff S]

Thanks, Gordon. Forgive my ignorance, but how does one tweak the S1R EVF?  Does the SL EVF provide similar adjustment flexibility?  

Jeff

[LocalHero1953]

@FlashGordonPhotography Hi Gordon, that's a really useful analysis from someone whose judgement I trust. 
Paraphrasing your words, it sounds like you think all of the cameras and lenses you tested produce 'good' images, perhaps 'excellent' compared to lesser competition, but you clearly see better IQ from the X1Dii, and certain primes, and this will make a difference to your travel choices. Why are you looking for this extra level of IQ perfection? Do you print to large size? Crop a lot? Is it better colour rather than higher resolution that you are looking for? Is it personal satisfaction when you look at your images on a screen, rather than a difference that will be obvious to a third party? Or do you consider that we still haven't reached a stage where the IQ from all these cameras is good enough for all practical purposes? I'm not trying to argue otherwise (I don't have your experience of most of these systems), just trying to placing your criteria in the context of my own when I come to make my own choices.

Edited October 21, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[nicci78]

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/plenty-of-announcements-this-week-from-fuji-leica-zeiss-canon-tamron-and-more/

Mirrorless Rumors are confident that SL2 will be announced this week.

As usual, Leica rumors has no clue, if not posted on Nokishita before hand. 😂

 

 

 

[sillbeers15]

S3 launch is delayed into 2020.

I do not know the specs of the SL2 but the closest I can determine on it’s AF & DR would be from the Q2 rather than S1R.

Jay Cassaario’s review of the Q2 provides pretty detail info on the DR of the 47MPx sensor. https://www.jaycassario.com/blog/leica-q2-review.       

[tom0511]

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

I'm doing those tests at the moment, as I have a photographic trip coming up in a couple of weeks. I have all the major players to compare (except the Sony R4. I have an R3) and it's plain that none of the systems are perfect and at the same time all are excellent.

The X1D has the highest overall image quality. And the files require almost no work except for aesthetic changes. And they're ridiculously pliable. Recovering several stops of shadow detail is trivial and introduces almost no issues in IQ. It's strength and weakness is it lens system. The lenses are spectacular but there are no zooms. I have a balloon flight as part of this trip so I think a great zoom might be useful as it was last time. The long exposure functionality of the X1D is without equal in any system. Startup time is not relevant on this trip and I get used to differences in focus speed pretty quickly and adjust accordingly. If the 35-75 were available it would be a no brainer. As it is I might just take the good but not epic HC35-90 for the balloon flight. It's huge though and a Z7 plus two zooms is lighter and with more range.

The S1R has the high resolution mode. It works and it's fabulous although limited to 1 second exposures. Continuous AF isn't great but single shot is awesome. Focuses in the dark and really quickly. IBIS is unbeleivable, although I'll be on a tripod 95% of the time for this trip. You can attach the Leica zooms which are wonderful but not in the same league as the primes. And there's not enough primes to build a system from. The 90-280 is good enough however the 16-35, although the best wide zoom I've ever used (and I have most of them) isn't as good as the Hasselblad primes. It's obvious to me anywhere outside the centre. The 24-90 is fine until about 80mm but again the primes are obviously better and I know I'd prefer the IQ on a trip like this.The S1R sensor is very good. Close to the Sony R3. Neither are close to the X1D sensor in malleability or colour response. Not even in the same ball park. And a complete S1R system with the three Leica zooms and a fast 50 (1,4) weights about the same as an X1D kit, assuming two bodies. So one has better IQ and one more speed/convenience. If there were a couple more SL primes available (16, 21 and 180mm) then the S1R/SL combo would be hard to beat.

I have discounted the Sony system as I despise the cameras usability, handing and near complete lack of weather sealing. I took that to Namibia last year and the images were fine but I didn't enjoy using the cameras at all. But there are many lens options and the cameras are tech giants. If you don't care about ergonomics, handing or robustness then it's the system to beat. Unfortunately those are my top three requirements in a camera body.

The closest 135 format sensor to the X1D (mirrorless) is the Z7 and it's a fabulous little camera with fabulous little lenses. It's still a half stop behind the X1D in sensor pushability and the long exposure functionality is poor but overall it's a great little system with a TON of lens options available using the FTZ adaptor. The primes aren't SL quality but they're very good indeed. The zooms don't draw as nicely as the SL ones but sharpness is very very close and they're TINY. The 14-30 is a jewel of a lens. The PF 70-300 was a real surprise. It's way too good for the money. Handling is really good.

I just got back from 10 days in Hong Kong. I took the S1R and SL zooms plus a CV50mm 1.2. In hindsight for that trip the Z7 kit would have been a better option just for the weight and convenience. But I like the S1R and it performed well, as did the SL zooms. HOWEVER, I can't stop comparing the files to what I get with the X1D and that's a problem. In this case not so much the sensor, although the colours will take some work to get right. I would have loved the S1R with some SL primes and there's just not enough. I even went to the HK Leica store on the off chance they'd have an SL50 I could buy. Missed it by a day...... 

If Leica make the SL2 to match the S1R then what they'll need is more lenses to keep up. For me, if there were more SL primes I'd be using the S1R/SL in two weeks. As it is I'm taking my X1D's and a Z7 to Myanmar in November.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

I think it is getting there in regards of lenses. We have the beautiful 35/50/75/90 Summicrons, we have 3 excellent Zooms from Leica and some stuff from Panasonic. You could also allways put a Canon TS lens on the SL/S1r, or a M 21mmSEM. I am surprized about your experience with the 16-35. I have the feeling mine is sharp also in the corners. I wonder if there is sample variation.

In regards Z7 vs SL/S1r - I also tried both. One thing where I do prefer SL / Pana is the color rendering. I find Nikon still has that typical Nikon slight yellowish "cast" sometimes. For me its easier with Leica to come to the point which I like in regards of color.

I agree that with both x1d and Leica S (and probably Fuji MF) the files take more post, and come out very nice in the first step often. A well exposed file from FF with a very good lens is still not that far away. I am still not there to give up MF but I am also really quite satisfied what some the FF cameras and lenses offer today.

 

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/plenty-of-announcements-this-week-from-fuji-leica-zeiss-canon-tamron-and-more/

Mirrorless Rumors are confident that SL2 will be announced this week.

As usual, Leica rumors has no clue, if not posted on Nokishita before hand. 😂

 

Not fair, I think. The leaks have been handled differently by Leica this time. Very limited information was provided to the rumor sites, while IBIS was confirmed to the French testers even before the camera has been announced. Let’s see what other surprises await us this week. 

[budjames]

It might be a relabeled Panasonic S1R with a number of buttons taped over. :)

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Thanks, Gordon. Forgive my ignorance, but how does one tweak the S1R EVF?  Does the SL EVF provide similar adjustment flexibility?  

Jeff

The SL has almost no adjustability of the EVF. The S1R you can adjust everything. Brightness, contrast and colour are all adjustable to your liking through the menus. Out of the box the EVF was very hot and the colours didn't look like the exposed product. I don't know if every S1R is the same but I didn't like it and now I do. I also have the S1R default set to natural which is more "Leica" like.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

@FlashGordonPhotography Hi Gordon, that's a really useful analysis from someone whose judgement I trust. 
Paraphrasing your words, it sounds like you think all of the cameras and lenses you tested produce 'good' images, perhaps 'excellent' compared to lesser competition, but you clearly see better IQ from the X1Dii, and certain primes, and this will make a difference to your travel choices. Why are you looking for this extra level of IQ perfection? Do you print to large size? Crop a lot? Is it better colour rather than higher resolution that you are looking for? Is it personal satisfaction when you look at your images on a screen, rather than a difference that will be obvious to a third party? Or do you consider that we still haven't reached a stage where the IQ from all these cameras is good enough for all practical purposes? I'm not trying to argue otherwise (I don't have your experience of most of these systems), just trying to placing your criteria in the context of my own when I come to make my own choices.

As far as I'm concerned they can all produce superb images. For me the sensor is the least important part of a system but all things being equal the X1D rules. I can print A1+ in studio (I have an Epson 7900) and I do so regularly.

I don't know that I'm looking for an extra level of perfection. I am extremely fussy but I have large prints I'm happy with, still, from a wide range of cameras and lenses. But I have experienced what the X1D, shot on a tripod can do and once you have seen it, it becomes what the others are compared to. But I have little interest in the GFX100 for some reason. Probably because although there will be a difference I think for my 7900 prints it will be slight and I also stitch quite a bit to make bigger files anyway. As I mentioned I left the X1D at home last year and took a Sony system and the images were more than satisfactory. I have a higher than normal number of keepers. And no regrets. I took the right system for the job at the time. However the X1D (and Fujifilm and Pantax 645Z) raise the bar just a bit if the shooting style suits using them. Otherwise I take the S1R or Z7 depending on what my needs/priorities are. If the Z7 or S1R had been available last year I would have almost certainly taken the S1R with the SL lenses over the Sony.

I am extremely happy shooting with the S1R and Z7, especially with good primes. I value the availability of the zooms and IBIS and the operating speed they offer. When those things are  less important I can squeeze a few percent extra by shooting the X1D. I am fortunate enough to be able to have that choice.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Hi Gordon,

I think it is getting there in regards of lenses. We have the beautiful 35/50/75/90 Summicrons, we have 3 excellent Zooms from Leica and some stuff from Panasonic. You could also allways put a Canon TS lens on the SL/S1r, or a M 21mmSEM. I am surprized about your experience with the 16-35. I have the feeling mine is sharp also in the corners. I wonder if there is sample variation.

In regards Z7 vs SL/S1r - I also tried both. One thing where I do prefer SL / Pana is the color rendering. I find Nikon still has that typical Nikon slight yellowish "cast" sometimes. For me its easier with Leica to come to the point which I like in regards of color.

I agree that with both x1d and Leica S (and probably Fuji MF) the files take more post, and come out very nice in the first step often. A well exposed file from FF with a very good lens is still not that far away. I am still not there to give up MF but I am also really quite satisfied what some the FF cameras and lenses offer today.

 

Hasselblad released 7 lenses in 24 months with the zoom coming next month. Leica are nearly at 5 years for the same amount of glass and many of them are very difficult to find. I don't think Leica has done very well at SL lens releases, personally.

Gordon

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Minute schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

Hasselblad released 7 lenses in 24 months with the zoom coming next month. Leica are nearly at 5 years for the same amount of glass and many of them are very difficult to find. I don't think Leica has done very well at SL lens releases, personally.

Gordon

+1. I think it’s time for Leica to make amends with an incredible SL2. Let’s see. 😁

[tom0511]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

Hasselblad released 7 lenses in 24 months with the zoom coming next month. Leica are nearly at 5 years for the same amount of glass and many of them are very difficult to find. I don't think Leica has done very well at SL lens releases, personally.

Gordon

I fully agree with you, that Leica were/are slow. Still I think we are at a point today that there is finally a good spectrum of lenses available , except you are a wildlife or birding photographer and need more than 280mm.

[nicci78]

Building almost everything at Wetzlar makes it difficult to roll out dozens of new lenses per year. 

Leica is also covering the whole photo market with more than 10 current cameras : S2, SL, Q2, M10 (all variants), M (all variants), TL2, CL, V-Lux 5, D-L-Lux 7, C-Lux and Sofort. 

They also have to support 3 mounts : S, L-mount & M. And offer a viable solution for legacy R mount.

Hasselblad on the other hand, only had to support 2 cameras and their respective mounts: X & H. Plus offering a viable solution for legacy V mount. 

Even better, Blad did not need to build the lenses. They are outsourced to Fujifilm or Nitto in Japan. So it’s much easier to ramp up quickly a whole range of lenses.

 

Leica has relief only with five TL lenses and with the Panasonic FZ1000 II, LX100 II & TZ200 clones. And with the Fujifilm made Sofort.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by nicci78

[Chaemono]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

Leica is also covering the whole photo market with more than 10 current cameras : S2, SL, Q2, M10 (all variants), M (all variants), TL2, CL, V-Lux 5, D-L-Lux 7, C-Lux and Sofort. 

+1. Forgoing the vegan python leatherette Drifter would have freed up capacity for one more SL lens, though. 😁

Edit - I forgot, and if it weren’t for the watches, we’d all be holding a CM right now. 😂

Edited October 21, 2019 by Chaemono

[bags27]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Building almost everything at Wetzlar makes it difficult to roll out dozens of new lenses per year. 

Leica is also covering the whole photo market with more than 10 current cameras : S2, SL, Q2, M10 (all variants), M (all variants), TL2, CL, V-Lux 5, D-L-Lux 7, C-Lux and Sofort. 

They also have to support 3 mounts : S, L-mount & M. And offer a viable solution for legacy R mount.

Hasselblad on the other hand, only had to support 2 cameras and their respective mounts: X & H. Plus offering a viable solution for legacy V mount. 

Even better, Blad did not need to build the lenses. They are outsourced to Fujifilm or Nitto in Japan. So it’s much easier to ramp up quickly a whole range of lenses.

 

Leica has relief only with five TL lenses and with the Panasonic FZ1000 II, LX100 II & TZ200 clones. And with the Fujifilm made Sofort.

 

 

No argument: Leica has a lot more to cover than does Hasselblad. Just to say that one thing Leica has done with their L mount lenses is to try as much as possible to standardize construction and even the actual shells of those lenses. This is a necessary efficiency.  

[OHW]

Leica is rumored to increase US prices on November 1st by 25%. I was told that the first price increase will impact only Leica lenses. A second price increase is expected on December 1st for compact Leica cameras

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/2019/10/21/leica-rumored-to-increase-us-prices-on-november-1st.aspx/#ixzz630u8FQW5

[Chaemono]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb OHW:

Leica is rumored to increase US prices on November 1st by 25%. I was told that the first price increase will impact only Leica lenses. A second price increase is expected on December 1st for compact Leica cameras

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/2019/10/21/leica-rumored-to-increase-us-prices-on-november-1st.aspx/#ixzz630u8FQW5

It’s just in retaliation for those US tariffs on European cheese. 😂

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[bags27]

Hmm... Maybe Panasonic made a big donation to the Republican party! 🙂