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"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier


johnbuckley

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29 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I’m not sure why the improvement should be exponential and not linear.

It's harder to perceive with smaller sensors. Following your previous post, a 1-inch sensor has over 5 times the surface area of the best smartphone sensors. Would you say the difference in IQ is linear or exponential to difference between m43 and fullframe (3.8x)?

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Mr.Q:

It's harder to perceive with smaller sensors. Following your previous post, a 1-inch sensor has over 5 times the surface area of the best smartphone sensors. Would you say the difference in IQ is linear or exponential to difference between m43 and fullframe (3.8x)?

It would be interesting to check. But I spent all my money on those SL Summicrons. 😂

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10 hours ago, tom0511 said:

IMO with lenses as good as the new Sl-Summicrons, progress in sensor technology, the IQ-gap between FF and medium format gets smaller.

Between the x1d and SL-system there is a huge difference in flexibility and operating speed. Even the x1dII takes very long to switch on for example. There are workarounds and for landscape photography it might not matter. But the idea I had once to use a x1d for allround use instead of a FF-camera has not been successfull for me. If the x1d(II) was faster and had a better viewfinder than it might be another story.

I can't fully compare the two as no SL, but comparing the Q with the latest version of the  'blad, I'd note that the Q's AF is certainly faster and less prone to hunting. I'd liken the X1Ds speed and low light AF performance ... again limited to experience with the 45mm...  to something between a Fuji  E1 and  XT1.  Basically just above first gen APS-C AF performance.  From a startup perspective, it's a little slow, 4 seconds, but by just setting the camera to sleep rather than turning it off, it comes back with a button press in a second or so. The VF is supposedly improved as well, I'd say a bit noisier than the Q although it is significantly larger which more than makes up for that. It should be mentioned that once powered up the X1DII is very snappy. The blackout period hasn't cracked into my consciousness while shooting and the touch screen is superb. So one might suppose that indeed the claimed new found processing power is there and future firmware improvements, for AF in particular, might close the perceived speed gap to more reasonable levels. OTOH as an M user, I'm prepared to accept that my notion of speed to shot is far more rooted in the 20th C. than 21st. Some will certainly find it too much of a tortoise. 

As for format wars, one aspect that tends to get overlooked is the flexibility to control the composition in the third dimension. In that regard, FF, IMO, provides the most flexibility from a compositional standpoint as its fairly easy to dial up DoF from razor thin to deep. While subject isolation is rarely an issue, the challenge with MF is getting sufficient DoF while avoiding the inevitable issues caused by dialing things past f16 or so. With APS-C, often one finds oneself wishing for faster falloff. In the end, all else being close to equal, if I only could have one camera, I would  be shooting FF as it represents to me the best compromise of size, image quality and creative control. 

 

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19 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

There are trade-offs for each system.

With the X1DII you get a smaller overall system, better IQ, the best grip ever, amazing UI, lens shutter for strobes, and no LENR.  With the SL2 you get faster operational speed, better versatility with zooms, adaptability with M lenses, and presumably IBIS and great video features.

And if you shoot with multiple systems, comparing these cameras head-to-head becomes a bit more complicated. It's like cross-shopping between a Bentley vs Ferrari. Your decision may be swayed depending on whether your other car is a luxury sedan or a sports car.

For me, I only have room for 2 systems. I currently shoot with the X1D II for max IQ-portability ratio, and the Sony A9 for max speed/versatility. If I had to shoot with one system, the SL2 would probably be a better choice.

Since sell off my Fuji kit, I now shoot with two systems too. M10 and SL. I'm hooked on the IQ and precision of Leica primes.

Looking forward to see what the SL2 brings us.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb budjames:

Looking forward to see what the SL2 brings us.

My guess is Cine Mode will offer 4K capture with the full width of the frame...at 60 fps.  😁You know how insane the data demand of 60 fps in 4K with 47-50 MPx is?  They’ll need one heck of a Maestro 3 processor and built-in memory for buffering on the sensor to pull it off. Sony hasn't put 60 fps 4K in any α7 camera yet.

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5 hours ago, budjames said:

Since sell off my Fuji kit, I now shoot with two systems too. M10 and SL. I'm hooked on the IQ and precision of Leica primes.

Looking forward to see what the SL2 brings us.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

I'm slowly shrinking my camera gear. Late last year, I traded in my M9-P and M10-P for the X1D system but kept some of my M lenses. The A9 has become my new workhorse as it does everything better than the SL. I'll probably end up purchasing the SL2 to give it a fair shake but if it doesn't work out my M lenses are being liquidated as well.

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2 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

I'm slowly shrinking my camera gear. Late last year, I traded in my M9-P and M10-P for the X1D system but kept some of my M lenses. The A9 has become my new workhorse as it does everything better than the SL. I'll probably end up purchasing the SL2 to give it a fair shake but if it doesn't work out my M lenses are being liquidated as well.

As the old adage goes,  never sell Leica lens (probably meant to mean M lenses).  One day we might be even surprised with EVF only full frame M camera.   

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Well... I've just been invited by Leica Italy to an event in Milan on Tuesday, November 5th, they said that they will present a new product the name of which ends with 2 🙂
So I guess that by then, everyone will finally know Vader!

Edited by giampo
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4 hours ago, giampo said:

Well... I've just been invited by Leica Italy to an event in Milan on Tuesday, November 5th, they said that they will present a new product the name of which ends with 2 🙂
So I guess that by then, everyone will finally know Vader!

About time that CL2 got released... 😉

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51 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

November, 2021, based on recent 4 year cycles for M, SL and S (if it ever comes).

Jeff

The TL2 came 3 years and 3 months after the T but even with that schedule the CL2 would only be early 2021...

And who cares?  They will probably keep the platform alive but if you are not releasing any new lenses... 

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8 minutes ago, SlowDriver said:

The TL2 came 3 years and 3 months after the T but even with that schedule the CL2 would only be early 2021...

And who cares?  They will probably keep the platform alive but if you are not releasing any new lenses... 

But the point is what’s coming up soon, and since the CL was released a full two years after the SL, I’m taking a wild guess which second iteration is forthcoming...

Jeff

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Hence the wink... ;) ...😉

It is obviously certainly the SL2. 

Not sure though why Leica Rumors is so silent.  Aren't they supposed to pick up rumors like the ones in this thread and try to confirm them...?

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

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2 hours ago, SlowDriver said:

Not sure though why Leica Rumors is so silent.  Aren't they supposed to pick up rumors like the ones in this thread and try to confirm them...?

I suspect that Peter will do that, but he’s been wrong three times now on SL2 release rumors, beginning with his confident prediction for late 2018, before the Lumix S. cameras.

Jeff

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On 10/10/2019 at 7:17 PM, nicci78 said:

Will be announced before Paris Photo 2019 & Salon de la photo at Paris. Both exhibitions starting November 7th 2019

  • IBIS confirmed. Hello Darth Vader dark force
  • photos leaked are true. Thanks Nokhishita.
  • CL/Q2 three buttons layout. But same buttons count as SL. 
  • Q2 modified sensor. Whatever that means. 
  • 5,990€ including VAT 

This Wednesday and Thursday workshops were for Leica sellers. First time they ever touched SL2.  

 

An S1R with Panasonic branding and interface: €3,800 + VAT

An S1R with Leica branding and interface: €5,990 + VAT

That's €2,190 (a 50+% premium) for a CL style interface.  Possibly some optimisation for M lenses.

Am I missing something here?

Looking forward to Jono Slack's review.

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41 minutes ago, Distagon said:

An S1R with Panasonic branding and interface: €3,800 + VAT

An S1R with Leica branding and interface: €5,990 + VAT

That's €2,190 (a 50+% premium) for a CL style interface.  Possibly some optimisation for M lenses.

Am I missing something here?

Looking forward to Jono Slack's review.

So it means we can buy one each.

The SL2 will be the camera body designed for my Leica SL lenses and a S1R will allow me to use my Leica SL lenses with third party off camera flashes (Elinchrome and Godox).

 

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On 10/17/2019 at 9:49 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't know what you are are basing all these numbers on...who in their right mind would buy an MA for 4080 euros if they were price sensitive at all? The MA is not even a practical Leica, let alone a practical 35mm camera...huge cost, no meter, etc. It is an extremely esoteric choice for a 35mm camera. Leaving aside the dozens of Leica models you can buy for dramatically less, you can buy a 35mm film camera with a good enough lens to out-resolve the film for a few dollars. Anyway, I do not want to devolve the thread, but I will say in my personal experience I have dropped thousands of dollars on digital cameras which only last a few years versus a comparatively small amount on really high end film bodies, and the film bodies always seemed like a much better deal to me. For my Leica S cameras, I am looking at roughly 3 dollars per shot over 8 years versus a cost of 50 cents per shot for 6x7 black and white (including development cost, excluding labor and scanning). Anyway, it is a boring and very personal discussion...sorry for going down the rabbit hole with this. 

Leica store Singapore offered me a 10% discount on a QM set M10 not too long after launch with full warranty. I sold my four years old M240 and recovered 60% of my cost. So for me, it was a 30% cost of upgrade or 130% cost for 2 new cameras in its early stage of product life cycle. Not a bad deal at all. I just sold my 4 yrs old SL for 50% of its cost while I wait for the SL2 to be released. On the note of the Leica lenses, I buy once and do not sell them. Not such a bad deal considering the relative good residual value of used Leica bodies. 

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On 10/19/2019 at 1:02 AM, tom0511 said:

 I agree with all your points. What I also like about the SL is the 16-35 - it is like a 21/30/45 mm prime for the x1d but all in one lens - but of course it is not 100% of the IQ you get with the x1d and any of the primes. If I have time I should shoot some comparisons though to see how big differences in IQ are, as I said before I think they are getting smaller. x1d+A9 sounds like best of both worlds, speed and IQ

I'm doing those tests at the moment, as I have a photographic trip coming up in a couple of weeks. I have all the major players to compare (except the Sony R4. I have an R3) and it's plain that none of the systems are perfect and at the same time all are excellent.

The X1D has the highest overall image quality. And the files require almost no work except for aesthetic changes. And they're ridiculously pliable. Recovering several stops of shadow detail is trivial and introduces almost no issues in IQ. It's strength and weakness is it lens system. The lenses are spectacular but there are no zooms. I have a balloon flight as part of this trip so I think a great zoom might be useful as it was last time. The long exposure functionality of the X1D is without equal in any system. Startup time is not relevant on this trip and I get used to differences in focus speed pretty quickly and adjust accordingly. If the 35-75 were available it would be a no brainer. As it is I might just take the good but not epic HC35-90 for the balloon flight. It's huge though and a Z7 plus two zooms is lighter and with more range.

The S1R has the high resolution mode. It works and it's fabulous although limited to 1 second exposures. Continuous AF isn't great but single shot is awesome. Focuses in the dark and really quickly. IBIS is unbeleivable, although I'll be on a tripod 95% of the time for this trip. You can attach the Leica zooms which are wonderful but not in the same league as the primes. And there's not enough primes to build a system from. The 90-280 is good enough however the 16-35, although the best wide zoom I've ever used (and I have most of them) isn't as good as the Hasselblad primes. It's obvious to me anywhere outside the centre. The 24-90 is fine until about 80mm but again the primes are obviously better and I know I'd prefer the IQ on a trip like this.The S1R sensor is very good. Close to the Sony R3. Neither are close to the X1D sensor in malleability or colour response. Not even in the same ball park. And a complete S1R system with the three Leica zooms and a fast 50 (1,4) weights about the same as an X1D kit, assuming two bodies. So one has better IQ and one more speed/convenience. If there were a couple more SL primes available (16, 21 and 180mm) then the S1R/SL combo would be hard to beat.

I have discounted the Sony system as I despise the cameras usability, handing and near complete lack of weather sealing. I took that to Namibia last year and the images were fine but I didn't enjoy using the cameras at all. But there are many lens options and the cameras are tech giants. If you don't care about ergonomics, handing or robustness then it's the system to beat. Unfortunately those are my top three requirements in a camera body.

The closest 135 format sensor to the X1D (mirrorless) is the Z7 and it's a fabulous little camera with fabulous little lenses. It's still a half stop behind the X1D in sensor pushability and the long exposure functionality is poor but overall it's a great little system with a TON of lens options available using the FTZ adaptor. The primes aren't SL quality but they're very good indeed. The zooms don't draw as nicely as the SL ones but sharpness is very very close and they're TINY. The 14-30 is a jewel of a lens. The PF 70-300 was a real surprise. It's way too good for the money. Handling is really good.

I just got back from 10 days in Hong Kong. I took the S1R and SL zooms plus a CV50mm 1.2. In hindsight for that trip the Z7 kit would have been a better option just for the weight and convenience. But I like the S1R and it performed well, as did the SL zooms. HOWEVER, I can't stop comparing the files to what I get with the X1D and that's a problem. In this case not so much the sensor, although the colours will take some work to get right. I would have loved the S1R with some SL primes and there's just not enough. I even went to the HK Leica store on the off chance they'd have an SL50 I could buy. Missed it by a day...... 

If Leica make the SL2 to match the S1R then what they'll need is more lenses to keep up. For me, if there were more SL primes I'd be using the S1R/SL in two weeks. As it is I'm taking my X1D's and a Z7 to Myanmar in November.

Gordon

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