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"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

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Top case is still unseen.

The button count may be actually the same : the missing fourth button is transferred at the front.

Not the same for sure. But they still can make top case buttons bigger. And they can also add an extra button within the top dial, à la CL and Q2. 

We just have to wait the 24th to be sure.

 

Another thing, I think that Panasonic and Leica really teamed up to create S1/S1R and SL2.

Lumix S1/S1R seems to be based on SL without the unibody aluminium case. No more aluminium, just like the Q2, welcome to magnesium. Same as the rest of the industry. 🤔

Then they may have created a common frame platform from this basis.  Sharing lots of parts, such as : motherboard, sensor, ASICS, shutter, IBIS, 3.2" screen, OLED EVF, part of external magnesium frame. 

The thickness difference may be the lack of tilting screen, the smaller grip and battery on the SL2. 

Like that Panasonic and Leica can share the cost of development and keep their differences far enough to please their own customers.

It is Minolta XE and Leica R3 once again. It should not be like a plain Lumix make up with the red logo. 

So now the real question. With such part sharing and cheaper magnesium frame instead of unibody aluminium, can the SL2 be quite cheap (Leica standard speaking) 5,500 € with tax ? Or even lower ? Just look at how cheap the SL is being sold now. 

 

Edited by nicci78

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nicci, I like your posts but please stop spreading false information.

IBIS does require a thicker body. IBIS occupies space to the side, and towards the rear as well.

Even the current Sony bodies are thicker than the SL.

And I'm not believing some random "shop" rumors. Last one of those rumors ended up being false (36MP)

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SL2 can be thicker, look at the protruding lens horseshoe and EVF bump. 

Edited by nicci78

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@Mr.Q you may be right. IBIS sensor unit from Lumix S1R is massive. Thicker than other brands one. 

https://kolarivision.com/the-panasonic-s1r-disassembly-and-teardown/

I guess that we can say bye bye to IBIS. The SL2 will be a slim down version of S1R. Lighter and smaller, but no stabilization.

Edited by nicci78

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11 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

SL2 can be thicker, look at the protruding lens horseshoe and EVF bump. 

Can't be 100% yet, but from this angle thickness seems to be very similar.

 

 

Edited by Mr.Q

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I think that you are right. Resellers are not reliable sources at all. 

IBIS is too thick and you have to fit the motherboard behind it. Too many layers for such a thin body. 

47MP without IBIS @ 5,500 to 6,900€ price inc. VAT, will be a tough proposition. 

Instant fail ? Lumix S1R is already a failure. L-mount alliance do not start well after all. 

Edited by nicci78

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6 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

@Mr.Q you may be right. IBIS sensor unit from Lumix S1R is massive. Thicker than other brands one. 

https://kolarivision.com/the-panasonic-s1r-disassembly-and-teardown/

Good photo. Makes sense that it's much larger than Sony's unit, as the effectiveness of Panasonic's IBIS is reportedly greater than Sony's.
Strong magnets in there I suppose.
That's like at least 1cm right there. With that unit plus the increase in body size, a SL with IBIS will approach or even surpass 1 kilogram.
Personally, I rather have a smaller camera without IBIS.

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Lumix S1 and S1R are indeed over a kilo at 1,020 g

Edited by nicci78

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At any rate, I don't think IBIS would determine how successful the SL2 will become. For example, the X-T3 does not support IBIS but was selected as the "best mirrorless camera in 2018" by many reviewers. The key is to differentiate itself from the rest of the pack. A lightweight (700-750 gram) body would be a good starting point.  PDAF and effective eye-AF would be much more appealing than IBIS.  Otherwise, why not purchase one of the Lumix bodies for half the price?

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Using same 47MP already confirmed us that there will be no PDAF. 😭

So forget good eye AF. Q2 cannot even have a usable face detect. 

Panasonic is a disappointing technical partner. Bad AF (DFD is a joke) and huge IBIS unit. No state of the art sensor. etc... 

Edited by nicci78

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1 minute ago, nicci78 said:

Using same 47MP already confirmed us that there will be no PDAF. 😭

So forget good eye AF. Q2 cannot even have a usable face detect. 

Panasonic is a disappointing technical partner. Bad AF and huge IBIS unit. No state of the art sensor. etc... 

Panasonic's IBIS unit might be large/heavy, but it is amazingly good.

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5 hours ago, ron777 said:

Couldn’t agree more. But even with IBIS, considering Leica’s general price point, it will be a hard sell with the S1R on the market.

+1

SL1 used prices are going to hold up pretty well. Unless the actual announcement has more positive news than most of us are expecting at this point, a lot of existing SL owners are going to simply hang onto their current SL, new prospective buyers may look to used SL1 market or will turn to S1R (if they haven't already done so).

Hope I'm wrong as I was looking forward to SL2 but so far I'm very disappointed over the apparent "improvements".

I'm almost totally indifferent to the significant jump to 47MP and would have been much happier with 36MP. Also agree with all those that see the change from 4 customizable buttons as a step backwards. I say this even though I own the Q2 and the CL. I'm willing to sacrifice the consistency moving between cameras in order not lose the one key aspect that made the SL special and unique, particularly once one got use to the interface and fully personalized it.

The size and weight savings (if they materialize) are interesting but not enough to justify a switch or overcome prior points.

Lastly if SL2 doesn't have OIS the new introduction will be a total non starter. Leica will have wasted all of SL's forward momentum and many of the perceived gains from the growing lens availability and L alliance eco system. If SL2 release proves to be a disappointment to its core audience, it will be heavily discounted within 6-12 months of introduction. There simply is no way to sustain a 2x1 price differential versus S1R with no meaningful differentiation.

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I read this and scratch my head.  I compare in front of me M246 with Nikon Z7, two body sizes are almost identical. 

Compared to M246 the Z7 have EVF and hand grip/battery protrusions but the core bodies pretty much identical - millimetre here and there give or take. 

Z7 has 5-axis IBIS, so fitting one into smaller bodies can be achieved.  I suspect Pana and Leica either jointly developed S1R/SL2 or Leica is re-packaging S1R into the SL2. 

My guess, and i said this long before we were sidetracked with 36Mp sensor speculation and other red herrings on the other thread that SL2 will be based on S1R.  I strongly suspect it will come with IBIS but also with LENR.  Leaked pictures of SL2 are deliberately misleading, even the outer skin pattern acts as disguise to hide actual body thickness.

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46 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

@Mr.Q you may be right. IBIS sensor unit from Lumix S1R is massive. Thicker than other brands one. 

https://kolarivision.com/the-panasonic-s1r-disassembly-and-teardown/

I guess that we can say bye bye to IBIS. The SL2 will be a slim down version of S1R. Lighter and smaller, but no stabilization.

Doesn’t the Q2, same size as Q1, have IBIS? Not sure how we can conclude IBIS is missing.  Or am I missing something ?

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vor 34 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

47MP without IBIS @ 5,500 to 6,900€ price inc. VAT, will be a tough proposition. 

Instant fail ? Lumix S1R is already a failure. L-moun

Instant fail? Are you kidding? Great EVF with a high resolution FF sensor in a compact Leica body for €6,200 is an M killer. What Nokishita failed to mention is that the SL2 will come with an M-mount. Instant success. 😁

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4 minutes ago, paul.bridges.3388 said:

Doesn’t the Q2, same size as Q1, have IBIS? Not sure how we can conclude IBIS is missing.  Or am I missing something ?

Q2 do not have IBIS. Q and Q2 have OIS : optical image stabilisation, small lens element moving to correct any movement.

There are only 2 SL lenses with OIS : Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90 ASPH. and APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90-280 

IBIS means in body image stabilisation : sensor moved by strong magnets to correct any movement.

Edited by nicci78

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Lens mount aligned, the Lumix S1R is significantly thicker than SL. I guess that IBIS unit and tilting screen add a lot of centimetres. 

By the way SL (not counting the protruding grip) is considerably thinner than M typ 240 and still thinner than M10

Edited by nicci78

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Well, I have to say all of this is like trying to guess the performance and handling of a car from the body shape and the size of the wheels :rolleyes:

I think the fact that the LCD screen sits proud of the body by 5mm + indicates something else has been squeezed inside the body, so IBIS can't be discounted. Abandoning a single machined block of aluminium gets you a few more mm as well.

However, don't forget the other great enemy of the digital camera designer ...... heat ...... you either need very low power consumption components or very efficient heat dissipation, otherwise image quality will be compromised. Sony are masters of the former, which is one reason why their bodies are so compact ..... and Panasonic so large .....

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Just now, thighslapper said:

Well, I have to say all of this is like trying to guess the performance and handling of a car from the body shape and the size of the wheels :rolleyes:

I think the fact that the LCD screen sits proud of the body by 5mm + indicates something else has been squeezed inside the body, so IBIS can't be discounted. Abandoning a single machined block of aluminium gets you a few more mm as well.

However, don't forget the other great enemy of the digital camera designer ...... heat ...... you either need very low power consumption components or very efficient heat dissipation, otherwise image quality will be compromised. Sony are masters of the former, which is one reason why their bodies are so compact ..... and Panasonic so large .....

Heating issues / IBIS could be the reason the SL2 was delayed

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