Pham Minh Son Posted August 1, 2007 Share #1 Posted August 1, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica M8 versus Rollei P20 on normal lenses in terms of AWB and Resolving Power. I also throw in the DMR/R8 + 1.4/35 (sorry I no longer have the normal lens for the R system). The 1.0/50 was mounted on the M8 and the 2.8/80 on the Rollei 6008 AF/P20. The native dimension of the files at 150 pdi for the M8 is 26.11 x 17.56, the DMR is 25.8 x 17.2 and the P20 is 27.2 x 27.2. The lens was at F5.6 to maximize the resolving power of each lens without running into diffraction limit. The Rollei lens can be stop down even further but for this test it is sufficient. The images were processed with Capture One with no sharpening and etc. 1. AWB (images are crop according to the ratio of the native files at 150 dpi) a. M8 (firmware 1.102) + 1.0/50 Noctilux:http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/M8NoctiluxCRF5.6.jpg b. DMR/R8 + 1.4/35 (sorry I no longer have the normal lens here): http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/DMRR81435CRF5.6.jpg c. Rollei 6008 AF/P20 + 2.8/80 PQS: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P2080PQSCRF5.6.jpg 2. RP (100% view) a. M8 (firmware 1.102) + 1.0/50 Noctilux: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/M8100F5.6.jpg b. DMR/R8 + 1.4/35 (sorry I no longer have the normal lens here): http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/DMR100F5.6.jpg c. Rollei 6008 AF/P20 + 2.8/80 PQS:http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P20100F5.6.jpg -Son Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 1, 2007 Posted August 1, 2007 Hi Pham Minh Son, Take a look here M8 Vs P20 on Normal Lens - AWB/RP. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Pham Minh Son Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share #2 Posted August 1, 2007 Forgot to mention but the ISO are as followed: 1. Leica M8 ISO 160 2. Leica DMR ISO 200 3. Phase One P20 ISO 200 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted August 2, 2007 Share #3 Posted August 2, 2007 I don't know which WB is correct but I suspect the M8 is not. However, I like the M8 image the best as the frosted image on the glass appears most natural. The writing on the box is better than all but the P20 but the DOF may account for some of that. The P20 has the sharpest printing but the contrast is high and the image is not pleasing. The DMR had the worst image in terms of detail. The M8 had the least blown highlights in the windows too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted August 2, 2007 I don't know which WB is correct but I suspect the M8 is not. However, I like the M8 image the best as the frosted image on the glass appears most natural. The writing on the box is better than all but the P20 but the DOF may account for some of that. The P20 has the sharpest printing but the contrast is high and the image is not pleasing. The DMR had the worst image in terms of detail. The M8 had the least blown highlights in the windows too. Yes, the Leica M8 bigest critic is its ability to do AWB. The Leica DMR is more accurate but not like the P20. The P20 renders the most accurate color and of course its ability to resolve details is unmatched by 35 mm format as given. Despite the M8 poor ability to do AWB, it is a very capable camera with its high end optics to resolve finest details. In fact, the details are all there in the M8 but just not as easily read out as compare to the P20. The pleasing image quality (IQ) from the M8 files is potentially attributed to the optics, the Noctilux. There is a lens that I should compare the Noctilux, the Planar 2.0/110 both in Rollei mount and in Hasselblad mount. I will do the comparison tomorrow using the Rollei Carl Zeiss Planar HFT 2.0/110 PQ on the Rollei 6008/P20 and the Hasselblad Carl Zeiss Planar T* 2.0/110 FE on the DMR/R8. However, in the normal focal length class from each format, the Noctilux renders extremely pleasing images that leads folks to compare it to the longer lens such as the 75 Lux. Thus, one thing that we are certain; the Noctilux renders very pleasing image at the normal focal length. Pleasing IQ is achieved not only from the optics alone but also on the sensor at its optimal ISO. Every sensor has its best ISO and the test thus far has been in favor of the M8. The P20 and the DMR best ISO is actually lower than the M8. I will also compare the best ISO for each camera tomorrow. The P20 ISO should be at 50 and the DMR should be 100. In terms of dynamic range (DR) I expect the P20 to come out on top. However, I have seen the results from the M8 files that I have not seen in other non 16 bits digital sensor/camera; the M8 has the ability to render shadow details while still maintain highlight details. I have observed 2 occasions where the M8 showed the spectacular results. However, there is a compromise for the M8 files where the darkest shadow is not achieved as compare to the P20. What did Leica do here? I must be missing something here and need to study more on this signature of the M8 or could this be another attributed factor from the optics, Noctilux? We have seen high contrast lens can blow out highlights and cannot achieved smooth transition from light into shadow as with the older optics where the coating on the optics is minimum; folks also enjoy certain lens for the black and white images and the Noctilux is one of them. The interrelationship between optics and sensor must be accountable for something.... -Son Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted August 2, 2007 Share #5 Posted August 2, 2007 The P20 DR clearly shows. Image 'look' is a SW issue in digital; one can pick any look and the Kodak look SW should be replicated by someone for M8. The M8 will never get the range of 'color' in th ewhites, since there is an 16bit to 8 non linear compression. The P20 is 14bits and has more differentiation in the brigter areas such as the glass. Even boosting contrast the M8 wont get close to the P20. If the image seems harsh, easier to fix. cant get the DR back out of the M8 once the 8 bit map is done. The specular reflections in the glass are also due to better reslution in the P20. Nice test Son. Shows the camera character well. (it would be interesting to throw an Aptus in the mix since those are said to be less analytical than the Phase backs. regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted August 2, 2007 Today I was able to do more testing but not with the DMR since the Hasselblad Carl Zeiss Planar T* 2.0/110 FE cannot stop down. The test today was using the best ISO the P20 has to offer at 50. In this ISO setting the dynamic range is very cleared and the noise is gone; simply a very fine image with well controlled noise and high dynamic range. I also use the more bokeh designed lens in the Rollei Carl Zeiss Planar HFT 2.0/110 PQ. The Planar 2.0/110 is also known to have very high resolving power. Thus, the Planar 2.0/110 should balance out the resolving power of the Noctilux and bokeh somewhat. In order to see the size more relative to each other you must download the file and open it in Photoshop and view them at 100%; the web browser seems to size them differently with the P20 smaller than the M8 files. 1. AWB (images are crop according to the ratio of the native files at 150 dpi) a) Rollei 6008 AF/P20 (ISO 50) + Planar HFT 2.0/110 PQ http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P2020110CRF5.6.jpg 2. RP at F5.6 (100% view) a. M8 (ISO 160/firmware 1.102) + 1.0/50 Noctilux: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/M8Noctilux100F5.6.jpg b. Rollei 6008 AF/P20 (ISO 200) + 2.8/80 PQS: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P2028-80100F5.6.jpg c. Rollei 6008 AF/P20 (ISO 50) + 2.0/110 PQ: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P2020-110100F5.6.jpg -Son Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted August 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now looking at F16: 3. RP at F16 (100% view) a. M8 (ISO 160/firmware 1.102) + 1.0/50 Noctilux: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/M8Noct100F16.jpg b. Rollei 6008 AF/P20 (ISO 200) + 2.8/80 PQS: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P2028-80100F16.jpg c. Rollei 6008 AF/P20 (ISO 50) + 2.0/110 PQ: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z265/AdapterSolutions/P202.0110100F16.jpg -Son Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 2, 2007 Share #8 Posted August 2, 2007 Son check this out just a touch of sharpening on the M8 file and WB it a little , getting pretty nice. the Nocti is a sharp lens but i would not call it the sharpest tool in the shed. Maybe the 50 lux would be a better comparison but that's okay still good stuff Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/30110-m8-vs-p20-on-normal-lens-awbrp/?do=findComment&comment=319538'>More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted August 3, 2007 Son check this out just a touch of sharpening on the M8 file and WB it a little , getting pretty nice. the Nocti is a sharp lens but i would not call it the sharpest tool in the shed. Maybe the 50 lux would be a better comparison but that's okay still good stuff Guy, I am not surprise that you were able to post process the image but you were able to attenuate the noise and the magenta cast on the glass at the bottom. I think it is a great combo to own the M8 and the medium format back which by the way becoming much affordable now a day especially with the Mamiya 22 megapixels coming. My 2nd back will arrived this Friday (oh that is tomorrow!). I am very impressed how clean the files from the P20 at ISO 50. -Son Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted August 3, 2007 Share #10 Posted August 3, 2007 Guy, I am not surprise that you were able to post process the image but you were able to attenuate the noise and the magenta cast on the glass at the bottom. I think it is a great combo to own the M8 and the medium format back which by the way becoming much affordable now a day especially with the Mamiya 22 megapixels coming. My 2nd back will arrived this Friday (oh that is tomorrow!). I am very impressed how clean the files from the P20 at ISO 50. -Son Son I agree with Guy. The 50 Nocti is a good lens but not the tool for this type of comparison. I would use either the 50 Lux or the 75 cron instead. This is a very worthwhile test but using the right lens would make it more so. woody Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share #11 Posted August 3, 2007 Woody, I guess I need another lens. I thought stopping down the Noctilux is also a very sharp lens. Also in general the MFT for the M lens are usually better than the medium format lens. But I would love to see more of the higher resolving lenses. -son Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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