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BXL Gotham

For the love of god, how can I manually lens correct Q2 images in any app?

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I am beginning to think Leica has a real problem. It needs to make sure imaging app developers can get the lens profiles of its $5k camera. Let's get real. The only app that appears to have it is Adobe. I can fix it automatically in Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom CC. However, I cannot fix it *manually* after I've processed the image in another app using the DNG file, and save out to a TIF. I *must* first process the image in another app for reasons I am not going to get into, and I end up with a TIF. When I go to manually select the lens profile for the Q2 in either LR or ACR, Leica isn't even listed in the makes of camera. Kidding me?

No other app that I have supports it whatsoever, including Alien Skin Exposure, Luminar, or DXO PhotoLab 2. How many thousands more do I have to spend on software to get an app that supports this camera.

I would welcome any suggestions for manually correcting the distortion on the Q2 images after they're in TIF and have lost all the lens profile information that is in the DNG. This is becoming a real inhibitor for doing anything with color or remotely sophisticated.

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Let me also add that I experienced the same blank stares from Alienskin when I asked for correction on the RX1 Rii. They actually asked me to help them by sending them sample images. Uhmm.. Buy the camera and do it yourself? Or SONY, send them the images? Why are we paying thousands for hardware cameras when the app makers and camera makers aren't even doing some of the simplest things to support these cameras? Frankly it's a little maddening especially at this price range. These companies will send their cameras to 50 youtubers, but not half a dozen imaging software developers? This isn't making sense.

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Could you please explain what you are trying to achieve?  The lens of the Q is a hybrid design, i.e. the optical part is designed with the digital part in mind getting the full quality with the complete output, which means that if you remove the digital corrections (which can be done, they are in a sidecar file), you will be left with an. inferior image taken with half a lens. However, leave the camera output intact and there little need for lens profiling in postprocessing.

DNG is a universal open source format, so there shouldn't be a problem.

It is hardly Leica's fault that the more obscure software developers write their software incorrectly. All they have to do is process the file as presented by the camera. Capture One refused for years to support Leica cameras over such a silly squabble.

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You expect a small developer to purchase one of every lens, then mention about the high price point? If it is too much trouble for you to email them a file I really don't see why they should bother to help you. 

There might be only a small handful of RX1 or Q2 users of apps like exposure. It would probably be cheaper for them to loose the customers than to mess about buying cameras. I suggest your rethink your approach and try to be more helpful towards those you would like to help you. 

Photoshop allows for manual (non profile based) lens corrections. Have you tried that?

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11 hours ago, BXL Gotham said:

Let me also add that I experienced the same blank stares from Alienskin when I asked for correction on the RX1 Rii. They actually asked me to help them by sending them sample images. Uhmm.. Buy the camera and do it yourself? Or SONY, send them the images? Why are we paying thousands for hardware cameras when the app makers and camera makers aren't even doing some of the simplest things to support these cameras? Frankly it's a little maddening especially at this price range. These companies will send their cameras to 50 youtubers, but not half a dozen imaging software developers? This isn't making sense.

You sound very capable as far as image refinement. May I ask what your end goal is and how bad is the Q2 relative to that pursuit? Just curious. 

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8 hours ago, ralphh said:

You expect a small developer to purchase one of every lens, then mention about the high price point? If it is too much trouble for you to email them a file I really don't see why they should bother to help you. 

There might be only a small handful of RX1 or Q2 users of apps like exposure. It would probably be cheaper for them to loose the customers than to mess about buying cameras. I suggest your rethink your approach and try to be more helpful towards those you would like to help you. 

Photoshop allows for manual (non profile based) lens corrections. Have you tried that?

I paid them money and they claim support for the camera. I’m not rethinking my approach but thanks for the advice. 

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10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Could you please explain what you are trying to achieve?  The lens of the Q is a hybrid design, i.e. the optical part is designed with the digital part in mind getting the full quality with the complete output, which means that if you remove the digital corrections (which can be done, they are in a sidecar file), you will be left with an. inferior image taken with half a lens. However, leave the camera output intact and there little need for lens profiling in postprocessing.

DNG is a universal open source format, so there shouldn't be a problem.

It is hardly Leica's fault that the more obscure software developers write their software incorrectly. All they have to do is process the file as presented by the camera. Capture One refused for years to support Leica cameras over such a silly squabble.

Well this is interesting context and I see your point somewhat however the issue isn’t buying every camera it’s having good relationships with camera makers and the reverse. They need each other in some respect and would it kill SONY to send them a camera on loan for a week and same with Leica?

I think squabble is the right word. 

I appreciate the additional knowledge and context it seems that there is still work to be done by Leica and not it’s customers. 

I am looking to take log profile of these images and run them through custom color grading tools, and then have a correction for the lens applied last. 

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1 hour ago, Leica Guy said:

You sound very capable as far as image refinement. May I ask what your end goal is and how bad is the Q2 relative to that pursuit? Just curious. 

Well I'm still learning brother Leica Guy. If you want to see some examples of my color grading, you can look at many in the "aesthetics" sections on my site: http://bxlgotham.com - there's a menu drop down with 12 different aesthetics. These are all hand graded using no filters from any app whatsoever (except aesthetic 0, which is loosely based on Fujifilm's chrome film simulation), and all but aesthetic 0 are shot on the GFX 50S. 

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The necessary lens corrections are built into the DNG files created by the Q.  Small developers need not purchase anything.  They do need to process the data that is given to them.

If you look at the metadata of a Q DNG you'll find "Opcode List 1" and "Opcode List 3".  List 1 "Specifies the list of opcodes that should be applied to the raw image, as read directly from the file".  List 3 "Specifies the list of opcodes that should be applied to the raw image, just after it has been demosaiced".  How to process the opcodes is part of the DNG spec.  Processing the opcodes does requires application of some non-trivial math.

The DNG spec is at https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf Section 7 describes the opcodes.

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3 hours ago, BXL Gotham said:

Well I'm still learning brother Leica Guy. If you want to see some examples of my color grading, you can look at many in the "aesthetics" sections on my site: http://bxlgotham.com - there's a menu drop down with 12 different aesthetics. These are all hand graded using no filters from any app whatsoever (except aesthetic 0, which is loosely based on Fujifilm's chrome film simulation), and all but aesthetic 0 are shot on the GFX 50S. 

Well sir, you have a very creative and intriguing portfolio of images. Unique. All I can say is, keep pursuing your vision. You are a very talented artist. 

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1 hour ago, marchyman said:

The necessary lens corrections are built into the DNG files created by the Q.  Small developers need not purchase anything.  They do need to process the data that is given to them.

If you look at the metadata of a Q DNG you'll find "Opcode List 1" and "Opcode List 3".  List 1 "Specifies the list of opcodes that should be applied to the raw image, as read directly from the file".  List 3 "Specifies the list of opcodes that should be applied to the raw image, just after it has been demosaiced".  How to process the opcodes is part of the DNG spec.  Processing the opcodes does requires application of some non-trivial math.

The DNG spec is at https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf Section 7 describes the opcodes.

Fair enough I’m happy to be corrected. I will articulate this back to the devs. Hard to imagine Alienskin doesn’t know this. Appreciate the education. It’s exactly why I came here. 

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1 hour ago, Leica Guy said:

Well sir, you have a very creative and intriguing portfolio of images. Unique. All I can say is, keep pursuing your vision. You are a very talented artist. 

Too kind of you. I feel I have a lifetime ahead of me of learning. I just picked up a camera a year ago after not having touched one for 30yr (age 13 with a Pentax K). 

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28 minutes ago, BXL Gotham said:

Too kind of you. I feel I have a lifetime ahead of me of learning. I just picked up a camera a year ago after not having touched one for 30yr (age 13 with a Pentax K). 

I’ve been at it for right at 6 decades and still learning. It’s a great hobby and vocation for the really committed. So many many avenues to go down. I expect to pursue doing my best to capture images which delight until my finger will no longer press the shutter button. Good luck on your quest. 

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2 hours ago, Leica Guy said:

I’ve been at it for right at 6 decades and still learning. It’s a great hobby and vocation for the really committed. So many many avenues to go down. I expect to pursue doing my best to capture images which delight until my finger will no longer press the shutter button. Good luck on your quest. 

My thoughts exactly, good luck as well :)

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I'm still not sure about one thing; why not just have LR correct as a first step, then use Exposure to process?  Exposure has only been able to work with RAW files for a few years - I used to use it all the time when I shot Canon because I never liked the out-of-camera colours, and back then it was a photoshop plug-in not it's own RAW converter.  Does it really make that much difference running it on a TIFF rather than a .DNG?

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb marchyman:

The necessary lens corrections are built into the DNG files created by the Q.  Small developers need not purchase anything.  They do need to process the data that is given to them.

Exactly - a good example is Capture One.
There is not a Q2-Profile in Capture One Pro 12 (which I use), but all the lens corrections which are built into the DNG files created by the camera are applied whenever you select "Manufacturer Profile" in the process of development. I have never used Alienskin, so I could only speculate, but it would really surprise me if Alienskin didn't have a similar possibilty to deal with manufacturer's DNG-files.

By the way, you can apply the built-in corrections at the beginning of the processing (which I would always recommend) or at the end or at any other point in between, but of course (for the reasons explained by marchyman) it is only possible when working with the DNG.

P.S.: Sorry for the German Setup in the picture, but I think it is still comprehensible in the picture here.

Edited by Macberg

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10 hours ago, BXL Gotham said:

Well I'm still learning brother Leica Guy. If you want to see some examples of my color grading, you can look at many in the "aesthetics" sections on my site: http://bxlgotham.com - there's a menu drop down with 12 different aesthetics. These are all hand graded using no filters from any app whatsoever (except aesthetic 0, which is loosely based on Fujifilm's chrome film simulation), and all but aesthetic 0 are shot on the GFX 50S. 

very interesting work....like it very much  :) 

 

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1 hour ago, ralphh said:

I'm still not sure about one thing; why not just have LR correct as a first step, then use Exposure to process?  Exposure has only been able to work with RAW files for a few years - I used to use it all the time when I shot Canon because I never liked the out-of-camera colours, and back then it was a photoshop plug-in not it's own RAW converter.  Does it really make that much difference running it on a TIFF rather than a .DNG?

Actually it does not make any difference at all - DNG is a modified TIFF format.

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Well it uses some TIFF format standard, but it is not exactly the same; the DNG has not been demozaiced and you can do highlight and shadow recovery, apply (or not) sharpening etc. A TIFF is a fully fledged image and as such had all the RAW conversion parameters baked in. You can't go back and turn down the sharpness once you've made a TIFF, so not exactly the same, but i was thinking that for the OPs purposes it might make no difference which order things are done in

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