Alternative Leica M camera concept

[pico]

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47 minutes ago, Per P. said:

I‘m with adan, it is hard to understand why split screen focusing disappeared

Speaking only for myself film SLR cameras with a split-screen focus were good. Eventually I migrated to central micro prism screens due to visual characteristics. I doubt any contemporary EVF will even attempt such an approach. They should.

[lykaman]

Loved the Split Screen focussing, I was never enamored with the Micro-prism -  L

Edited August 30, 2019 by lykaman

[Jeff S]

On 8/29/2019 at 4:08 AM, adan said:

In fact, it was when the SLR-makers quit providing fast, binary, aligned/not-aligned central focusing devices on their screens that they permanently lost me as a customer (Leica, take note).

 

Leica’s DSLR, the S, does have an optional, user changeable, split image focusing screen.  I tried it on the S006 that I demoed, and it reminded me of my favored SLR screens from cameras and days past.  Unfortunately it also reminded me of one aspect I disliked, when half the split screen when black using the already ‘slow’ camera in conjunction with the also slow S zoom lens (at its long end). Eye positioning can be critical. Can’t have it all. But I’ll take that big beautiful S viewfinder any day over an EVF, despite the electronic focus aids.

Jeff

[adan]

5 hours ago, Per P. said:

I‘m with adan, it is hard to understand why split screen focusing disappeared.

The manufacturers claimed the split-image device would interfere with adding spot-metering. Which is somewhat credible - the clear prism wedges pass light differently than a ground glass/plastic screen (brighter with some lenses, darker with others, as Jeff notes). Although both the Leica R4>9 worked around it, as did some Olympus OMs and others.

The cynics said it was because the manufacturers didn't want users to see embarassing evidence of just how - approximate - autofocus could be. 😝

[adan]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Unfortunately it also reminded me of one aspect I disliked, when half the split screen when black using the already ‘slow’ camera in conjunction with the also slow S zoom lens (at its long end).

True. Nikon in the F era made several split-screens with different slopes to the prisms, for use with regular lenses (aperture f/2.8 or faster) or with darker small-aperture lenses (less black-out, but less split visible).

To their credit Canon provides one split-screen for the EOS 1 cameras (EC-B) - but it has a shallow slope for use with slow zooms, and thus does not "split" as crisply as their old MF screens. Other downside is, it only fits the hefty 1/1D cameras.

[Ko.Fe.]

Here are Leica M alternatives right now if you can't use RF. Any mirrorles with EVF in the corner. For less, with faster electronics and better service. Even digital MF camera with EVF in the corner costs less. 3.999 right now. 

Quote

"- the rangefinder focussing concept is limited to lenses of about 28 to 75 mm"

How about learning the subject before writing about it... You could focus any lens coupled with RF. Which is from 15 to 135 mm. 

Sorry, but post like this shows what sometimes some needs Leica label more than camera. 

 

[chrismuc]

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Below

3 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Here are Leica M alternatives right now if you can't use RF. Any mirrorles with EVF in the corner. For less, with faster electronics and better service. Even digital MF camera with EVF in the corner costs less. 3.999 right now. 

How about learning the subject before writing about it... You could focus any lens coupled with RF. Which is from 15 to 135 mm. 

Sorry, but post like this shows what sometimes some needs Leica label more than camera. 

 

Of course one 'can' focus with any focal length. Below +/- 28mm focal length the viewfinder does not show the whole frame, so Leica recommends to use an external OVF (or EVF) for framing which slows down the image taking process if still wanted to focus with rangefinder-coupling. Above +/- 75mm the focusing accuracy and the probability to focus correct diminishes.

[lct]

Sure focusing is difficult at f/4 let alone f/3.5 with a 135mm lens as the limits of the rangefinder are close to those settings but at f/5.6 for instance there are no more reasons to miss focus than with a 75mm lens. I mean on still subject matters and for good enough focusing of course. When nailing focus is needed, no RF can compete with an EVF with focus magnification aniway.

Edited August 31, 2019 by lct

[evikne]

I've just discovered that the Visoflex is very useful when photographing mushrooms on the forest floor. They stand completely still, and I can zoom and fine tune the focus as much as I want.

But I can forget all about that when photographing kids who can barely stand still one second. For those (and almost all other) kinds of shots I much prefer the RF. 

[adan]

9 hours ago, chrismuc said:

Below +/- 28mm focal length.....Leica recommends to use an external OVF (or EVF) for framing which slows down the image taking process if still wanted to focus with rangefinder-coupling.

Doesn't for me. (21mm Elmarit-M, M4-2)

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Don't confuse user incompetence or laziness when using an RF with the actual capabilities of an RF.

A camera (or viewfinder) is exactly and precisely as good as the best pictures ever made with it. Anything lesser is operator error.

 

 

 

[pico]

27 minutes ago, adan said:

A camera (or viewfinder) is exactly and precisely as good as the best pictures ever made with it.

Agreed. As I grow older, my approach has changed to use an external viewfinder for framing focal lengths wider than nominal-normal, but I still use the rangefinder at the same time to try to nail focusing. Kind of a left-right eye thing. Plenty of misses, operator errors lately.

[Ko.Fe.]

14 hours ago, chrismuc said:

Below

Of course one 'can' focus with any focal length. Below +/- 28mm focal length the viewfinder does not show the whole frame, so Leica recommends to use an external OVF (or EVF) for framing which slows down the image taking process if still wanted to focus with rangefinder-coupling. Above +/- 75mm the focusing accuracy and the probability to focus correct diminishes.

Do you have any real practice with Leica M system at all?

Here is zero problem to focus Elmar 90/4. And here is no slowing down with external OVF with lens like 21 3.4. If you know how to zone focus with the tab...

[chrismuc]

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Do you have any real practice with Leica M system at all?

Here is zero problem to focus Elmar 90/4. And here is no slowing down with external OVF with lens like 21 3.4. If you know how to zone focus with the tab...

1. the diagonal distance to a focus point out of center is longer than the on axis distance of a center focus point (see Hasselblad and Phase One who developed compensation methods for their single center point AF medium format cameras). 2. most (wide angle) lenses suffer from field couverture (I adjust the focus point of for example my Canon TSE lenses always towards the image corners to achieve better general sharpness across the frame). 3. many lenses suffer from focus shift (therefore it is eventually better to focus not at open aperture but stopped down). For all three issues, the rangefinder focus system does not offer solutions, a digital on sensor focussing system with focus point all over the sensor surface does (and preferably using a high res EVF).

[lct]

3 hours ago, chrismuc said:

1. the diagonal distance to a focus point out of center is longer than the on axis distance of a center focus point (see Hasselblad and Phase One who developed compensation methods for their single center point AF medium format cameras). 2. most (wide angle) lenses suffer from field couverture (I adjust the focus point of for example my Canon TSE lenses always towards the image corners to achieve better general sharpness across the frame). 3. many lenses suffer from focus shift (therefore it is eventually better to focus not at open aperture but stopped down). For all three issues, the rangefinder focus system does not offer solutions, a digital on sensor focussing system with focus point all over the sensor surface does (and preferably using a high res EVF).

Among what you call those issues, #1 and 2 are features any RF user is supposed to manage well but there is a learning curve obviously. As for focus shift, all lenses don't suffer from it fortunately. Now the problem is the same with the EVF when focusing at full aperture. Reason why i focus stop down personally but this method is not advised by internet gurus FWIW and is not possible at all apertures even if it works fine up to f/8 or even f/11 for me. In fact the real weakness of the rangefinder is that it is calculated to be accurate at average magnifications exceeded by high rez sensors but this is another story.

[maxfairclough]

On 8/29/2019 at 9:22 PM, RexGig0 said:

I think that the overall body of Leica-M customers are relatively traditionalist/conservative, with a significant number wanting to use something very much like current and former M cameras. I see nothing wrong with innovation, but a new product must sell well, or Leica could run into financial trouble.

For a frame of reference, I am new to the Leica M system, having started in April 2018. I continue to use my SLR cameras, especially for birds, wildlife, and macro.

I agree with your whole comment. 

Also, I am new to M System since February this year. I am 27. I suspect most on this forum are much older.

[Ko.Fe.]

5 hours ago, chrismuc said:

1. the diagonal distance to a focus point out of center is longer than the on axis distance of a center focus point (see Hasselblad and Phase One who developed compensation methods for their single center point AF medium format cameras). 2. most (wide angle) lenses suffer from field couverture (I adjust the focus point of for example my Canon TSE lenses always towards the image corners to achieve better general sharpness across the frame). 3. many lenses suffer from focus shift (therefore it is eventually better to focus not at open aperture but stopped down). For all three issues, the rangefinder focus system does not offer solutions, a digital on sensor focussing system with focus point all over the sensor surface does (and preferably using a high res EVF).

This is what I told you from very beginning, grab something else. It is available will all of the perks you need.