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Leica CL vs Q Popularity


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Has anyone ever ordered from the Leica Shop in Austria?  Ordering something online even from an overseas company should be a straightforward process.  Ilk sent me the Ebay listing they had for a black CL, and I ordered the camera on their website. I've called them multiple times to complete the order, because  their website crashed on me.  The first couple of glitches, okay.  I'm about to give up. They are terrible to deal with.  I do not trust wiring money, in general, let alone overseas.   They said I could use a credit card and they'd send me a link but in three days, they haven't done this. They've only forwarded an invoice.  Maybe I'm missing something. I was feeling iffy anyway about buying the CL and would have let this go already except they had a great price for the camera.   

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On 8/16/2019 at 12:50 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

I think you've come to the wrong forum. You need a financial investment forum.

Neither a Q nor a CL make financial sense, unless you're being paid to take photos with either of them.

Of course.  Even the most dedicated Leicaphile would agree that Leica cameras, lenses and accessories are overpriced. Simply adding the Red Dot allows Leica to sell Panasonic cameras at a premium. That tells you all that you need to know about the economics of Leica love. As for the Q vs CL, I own, use and love both, but they serve different purposes. The IQ difference when using  the better TL lenses on the CL is very small indeed.

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I agree with Jaap which is why I started this thread with comments about how the Leica CL must be overpriced, because they do not sell even when heavily discounted from the retail price.  This pattern continues.  With one exception, I've yet to see a CL sell on Ebay.    This is not a unique phenomenon.  The Leica T will likely remain the standard bearer for the Leica camera that fell most quickly from grace after such an enthusiastic start.  

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6 hours ago, jaapv said:

If they sell, they are not overpriced. ;)

Leica would sell a lot more units, if the prices were lower. but they feel that they can make more money by setting prices high and keeping their products somewhat scarce. That makes Leica cameras and lenses prestige items. I am not arguing that they are not superbly made and a pleasure to use, but let us not forget what Thorsten Veblen taught us about conspicuous consumption. It is what creates the premium that we all agree to pay when we purchase Leica gear.

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8 hours ago, Stevinci said:

Has anyone ever ordered from the Leica Shop in Austria?  Ordering something online even from an overseas company should be a straightforward process.  Ilk sent me the Ebay listing they had for a black CL, and I ordered the camera on their website. I've called them multiple times to complete the order, because  their website crashed on me.  The first couple of glitches, okay.  I'm about to give up. They are terrible to deal with.  I do not trust wiring money, in general, let alone overseas.   They said I could use a credit card and they'd send me a link but in three days, they haven't done this. They've only forwarded an invoice.  Maybe I'm missing something. I was feeling iffy anyway about buying the CL and would have let this go already except they had a great price for the camera.   

I've bought and sold many Leica items from/to Leica Shop in Vienna. They've shipped cameras & lenses to me in South Africa as well as France over the past 11 years or so. They've always been great to deal with. It may be a good idea to pick up the phone and speak to the person who sent you the invoice. Strange that they've not got back to you. Clearly there's a breakdown in comms. somewhere. 

Best,

Mike

Edited by michali
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9 hours ago, Stevinci said:

Has anyone ever ordered from the Leica Shop in Austria?  Ordering something online even from an overseas company should be a straightforward process.  Ilk sent me the Ebay listing they had for a black CL, and I ordered the camera on their website. I've called them multiple times to complete the order, because  their website crashed on me.  The first couple of glitches, okay.  I'm about to give up. They are terrible to deal with.  I do not trust wiring money, in general, let alone overseas.   They said I could use a credit card and they'd send me a link but in three days, they haven't done this. They've only forwarded an invoice.  Maybe I'm missing something. I was feeling iffy anyway about buying the CL and would have let this go already except they had a great price for the camera.   

I've bought online from them using their website and a credit card. No other phone call needed. I've found their descriptions of condition to be very reliable, and their delivery to be fast. 

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2 hours ago, robgo2 said:

Leica would sell a lot more units, if the prices were lower. but they feel that they can make more money by setting prices high and keeping their products somewhat scarce. That makes Leica cameras and lenses prestige items. I am not arguing that they are not superbly made and a pleasure to use, but let us not forget what Thorsten Veblen taught us about conspicuous consumption. It is what creates the premium that we all agree to pay when we purchase Leica gear.

:Leica would run at a loss if they lowered their.prices. Over the years, they have struggled to make a profit, and even now, when Dr. Kaufmann managed to get the company on a healthy basis, the profits are not excessive. There have, indeed, been times that they made a loss on each unit sold and even then they were far more expensive than average. Building attractive gear does not come cheap, unless you get robots to do it for you.

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3 hours ago, david strachan said:

The CL is a crop, and the Q is  FF.  It's  a matter of putting up with the snobbery.

Both take very excellent pics.  

Time we got past the format size in this "day and age". Even printing is great with my M8 size images.

 

...

Indeed. It is hard to get rid of prejudices that have existed since the first Leica. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Stevinci said:

Has anyone ever ordered from the Leica Shop in Austria?  Ordering something online even from an overseas company should be a straightforward process.  Ilk sent me the Ebay listing they had for a black CL, and I ordered the camera on their website. I've called them multiple times to complete the order, because  their website crashed on me.  The first couple of glitches, okay.  I'm about to give up. They are terrible to deal with.  I do not trust wiring money, in general, let alone overseas.   They said I could use a credit card and they'd send me a link but in three days, they haven't done this. They've only forwarded an invoice.  Maybe I'm missing something. I was feeling iffy anyway about buying the CL and would have let this go already except they had a great price for the camera.   

I've bought from their eBay shop with no problems, fast shipping and lens was as their description.  Buyer protection through eBay and Paypal makes it safe enough.

 

3 hours ago, Stevinci said:

I agree with Jaap which is why I started this thread with comments about how the Leica CL must be overpriced, because they do not sell even when heavily discounted from the retail price.  This pattern continues.  With one exception, I've yet to see a CL sell on Ebay.    This is not a unique phenomenon.  The Leica T will likely remain the standard bearer for the Leica camera that fell most quickly from grace after such an enthusiastic start.  

 With regard to no CL sales on eBay, not sure where you are looking but if you search for CL (Digital Cameras) in completed listings there have been any number of sales at various prices.  

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3 hours ago, Stevinci said:

I agree with Jaap which is why I started this thread with comments about how the Leica CL must be overpriced, because they do not sell even when heavily discounted from the retail price.  This pattern continues.  With one exception, I've yet to see a CL sell on Ebay.    This is not a unique phenomenon.  The Leica T will likely remain the standard bearer for the Leica camera that fell most quickly from grace after such an enthusiastic start.  

Of which there is no proof, other than your assertion,  as none of us has any idea of the sales numbers, nor of the target sales.
Those are numbers that Leica will rarely give out. As far as I can judge from the number of owners on this forum, both the CL and the Q have a healthy customer base.

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10 hours ago, Stevinci said:

Has anyone ever ordered from the Leica Shop in Austria?  Ordering something online even from an overseas company should be a straightforward process.  Ilk sent me the Ebay listing they had for a black CL, and I ordered the camera on their website. I've called them multiple times to complete the order, because  their website crashed on me.  The first couple of glitches, okay.  I'm about to give up. They are terrible to deal with.  I do not trust wiring money, in general, let alone overseas.   They said I could use a credit card and they'd send me a link but in three days, they haven't done this. They've only forwarded an invoice.  Maybe I'm missing something. I was feeling iffy anyway about buying the CL and would have let this go already except they had a great price for the camera.   

Maybe they read your posts in this thread ;)

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10 hours ago, Stevinci said:

I agree with Jaap which is why I started this thread with comments about how the Leica CL must be overpriced, because they do not sell even when heavily discounted from the retail price.  This pattern continues.  With one exception, I've yet to see a CL sell on Ebay.    This is not a unique phenomenon.  The Leica T will likely remain the standard bearer for the Leica camera that fell most quickly from grace after such an enthusiastic start.  

I just did an EBay search on the Leica CL (digital) with the filters set for Sold items. Over a dozen have sold since the beginning of July. ?? 

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Just prior to a foreign holiday, I decided to travel light with my camera gear. A London Leica dealer demonstrated a Q and a CL. The Q is fabulous, but the fixed lens pushed me to the CL. I made the CL purchase with the 18-56mm Vario. I never thought I would return to an APS-C sensor, but the quality of the CL is great. The EVF superb. I can use my M and R lenses on it. The lenses are so easy to focus. Much easier than using the M type 240 or an R body. Hopefully a full frame M size body with EVF will be produced, but until then I'm happy with the CL.

Here are a few pictures from the trip. Mainly with the Vario lens, and a few 80 - 200 f4 R

 

https://www.flickr.com/gp/64867143@N00/DB16PN

 

Mark

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Great pictures. I cannot understand why anyone cares how many CLs have

sold on E bay!  CL with both Tl and M lenses is ideal camera for most of

the people on this Forum.  I also shoot with both a M7, M8 and a Leica C. Anyone who thinks FF is necessary for great pictures should look at the C forum with it’s much smaller sensor. I love my CL!

Dan

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13 hours ago, jaapv said:

:Leica would run at a loss if they lowered their.prices. Over the years, they have struggled to make a profit, and even now, when Dr. Kaufmann managed to get the company on a healthy basis, the profits are not excessive. There have, indeed, been times that they made a loss on each unit sold and even then they were far more expensive than average. Building attractive gear does not come cheap, unless you get robots to do it for you.

Jaap, it is strictly a marketing decision:  Can they make a greater profit selling more items at lower prices or fewer items at higher prices?  And what are the exact price points?  We don't really know if the former strategy would be more profitable for Leica, because it has never been tried.

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Mark, thanks for posting your photos.  The colors are beautiful and sharp.   

ramarren -- What a brilliant idea to check the sold CL listings on Ebay.  Thank you.   I did, and this revealed that the majority of the current Ebay listings are listed for a higher price than those that previously sold.  The majority of CL bodies without a lens sold for $1,828 or less.   Only two CL  bodies sold since June for over $2,000.  CL kits varied.  With the 18mm lens, two kits sold for $2,325 and $2,224 and another for $2,799.   One lucky buyer got a great deal with the 18-56mm lens for $2,200 and a couple of others bought used CL kits with the 18-56mm lens for under $3,000.   This tells me to be patient and perhaps someone in the States will eventually list their CL for sale for less than the current offerings.  Thanks to those of you who simply shared of your experiences with the cameras and thanks again, Mark, for posting some photos.       

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