Leica CL vs Q Popularity

[geoffreyg]

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The CL isn't the easiest to assess. It has such built in flexibility that people can see what they want in it, and then some are fine, some are discouraged. For those who want the "I want to do this and then that", my sense is they either graft with the camera or find they want something else. For me, I set it up as a modern M, EVF only and in BW, shoot to the histogram. Only use their zooms or the manual lens, leaving me with only two setups for the knobs to recall (that's all I can manage!). So the learning curve is simple and short. Once you get it right, it takes wonderful images. 

Its not too hard to see how one might slip into a realm where it can do other things, but I could imagine the knobs and the usual Leica-ness turning some folks off as they never get to what it can do.

When I was looking at it, some dealers preferred the Q, and weren't too excited about the CL - in part because they have to manage and understand all its complexities (a miserable responsibility). But there were some very serious folks in the Leica world, including Nick Rains in Australia (used to share Ebony LF advise) who spoke highly of it. They were right, but without this I'm not sure I would have gotten it.  

[Stevinci]

I may surprise folks yet and buy a Leica CL.  There are always a few folks in any forum who are overly sensitive.  You don't have to insult someone's interest to get them upset.  Simply question (or appear to question) their interest and this throws some folks off.   I'm thankful for the feedback my post has received from the folks who have cared to share their knowledge of either than Q or the CL.  I will check out the Nick Rains feedback about the CL.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Stevinci

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[lct]

3 minutes ago, Stevinci said:

[...] Somehow the concept of applying sales logic to Leica cameras strikes a nerve with some people. [...]

Do you mean that by applying what you call sales logics Leica should not sell the CL? If not, what are you expecting exactly? Just curious.

[geoffreyg]

2 hours ago, Stevinci said:

I will check out the Nick Rains feedback about the CL.

It was as simple email saying he was very fond of it, uses it all the time. Keep in mind he works (I think) for Leica in Australia now, or is an ambassador, so he might be a little enthusiastic. But his work is quite good. 

[Stevinci]

 Ict --  My comments are directed to the used market, only.  Leica can charge whatever they want for the CL or any of their other, wonderful products. 

This is not a comparison of cameras, the Q vs the CL. This is an assessment of the  sellers of used versions of either camera.  Many sellers of used Leica Qs price the camera right and the cameras sell.   Sellers of used Leica CL cameras aren't dropping the sales prices even though no one is biting at the current prices.  This is my own selfish angle that I care about this.  I know I know -- if I truly want a Cl, just buy it, right?  I admit, application of this kind of logic is difficult for me.    

Edited August 17, 2019 by Stevinci

[Le Chef]

11 minutes ago, Stevinci said:

 Ict --  My comments are directed to the used market, only.  Leica can charge whatever they want for the CL or any of their other, wonderful products. 

This is not a comparison of cameras, the Q vs the CL. This is an assessment of the  sellers of used versions of either camera.  Many sellers of used Leica Qs price the camera right and the cameras sell.   Sellers of used Leica CL cameras aren't dropping the sales prices even though no one is biting at the current prices.  This is my own selfish angle that I care about this.  I know I know -- if I truly want a Cl, just buy it, right?  I admit, application of this kind of logic is difficult for me.    

Then buy a used one and let someone else take the depreciation hit.

[ropo54]

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14 hours ago, RickP said:

Please excuse my ramblings. 

       I have owned the Leica Q in the past.  It was capable of taking, what I considered to be, the sharpest - most colorful photos - in even  dim light, of any hand held camera I have ever used.  It comes equipped with one of the finest Leica lenses ever made - (that lens,  originally designed for the M system, costs around $5000 by itself) -

     The one and only problem of the Q for me, was that it is a fixed focal length .  28mm field of view is just perfect for landscapes, street photography, even close up macro shots with the Q. 

      However, as a one camera kit, it is frustrating when you need a longer focal length.  I took it on one trip - to New Orleans - the shots I got were wonderful... the shots I couldn't get were enough for me  to sell the camera as soon as I got back!  It was a tough decision, but for me, there was no sense in having it if I still had to carry another body and lens along with it.

       The Q appeals to far more people than the CL or TL.  On one level, it is a very effective point and shoot... it takes little time to learn how to  work it.  Any 'wanabe'  photographer with $4500 in his pocket  can own one, and start shooting immediately. In the hands of a 'Pro' the results can be astounding.  Of course there is no quick way to develop the ability to see a good photograph -  ie. develop what we call the 'Eye'.  So snap shots with a great camera like the Q are still 'Snap Shots' . 

       Enter the CL and TL2 - Leica quality, a really nice choice of Leica lenses available … a complete system for most styles of shooting.  Unfortunately, the price point of the Cl with one Leica zoom already approaches the cost of the Q... get 3 or 4 lenses, you are up to $8000 easily.  Plus, as a system camera, it takes quite a bit of time and effort to learn how to use it effectively.

      Hence the widespread popularity of the Q vs. the TL/CL systems.  

 

     Camera values go up and down with  popularity, and availability... period!

 

Rick

 

 

Summed up perfectly, Rick. 

Rob

[Stevinci]

Le Chef, even if I bought a used Leica CL with lens, I'd still take a significant financial loss upon resale. This is what I have a difficult time with.   Also - hey, I admit this -- my Ebay observation made me question any hype I've read about how good the Leica CL is.  I apologize if this comment upsets anyone.  Why be upset?  I've admitted that I have not tried the CL.  Perhaps it's a brilliant camera and if tried one, all these ramblings would disappear.  I'll wait this out.  I'd prefer to find a used Leica CL on sale at a more reasonable price.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Stevinci

[Charadis]

2 hours ago, Stevinci said:

Le Chef, even if I bought a used Leica CL with lens, I'd still take a significant financial loss upon resale. This is what I have a difficult time with.   Also - hey, I admit this -- my Ebay observation made me question any hype I've read about how good the Leica CL is.  I apologize if this comment upsets anyone.  Why be upset?  I've admitted that I have not tried the CL.  Perhaps it's a brilliant camera and if tried one, all these ramblings would disappear.  I'll wait this out.  I'd prefer to find a used Leica CL on sale at a more reasonable price.

You'll just have to be a savvy shopper. Like me.  

I stalked auction sales every now and then until one day, a silver CL came up for 1850 by Leica Store SF. Looked immaculate, still had factory screen protector and complete packaging/accessories. Almost jumped on it over the weekend, but after watching TL prices fall, I became a little cautious about what and when I purchase. I know I'd take a hit anyways, but after I decided I really wanted this camera, it became more about the passion of owning/using it rather than worrying about resale value. 

I was dreaming of owning this camera. That's how much I wanted one, and I even got the lapel pin of it

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I found out LS SF lists their used body offerings on their own website if it stays up for a while on their listings. But for cheaper. I took a couple days to think about the purchase, then refreshing their site on Friday evening, there it was; 1795. No tax. Free shipping. Same serial as on auction listing. I literally scrambled to the order screen.

CL, meet TL. Happiest life day ever. 

So I waited a little while, but it paid off to be a smart and patient shopper. Check if the seller has a store front and their own website, or is from an official store.

And when you get your CL, register it, and I recommend claiming the full instruction manual! (they don't include the manual by default, just a Quick Start guide). They ship it to you allllll the way from Wetzlar! By Express!! It gets to you in like 4 or 5 days! And they address you as Herr, too. 🙂

 

 

I hope this convinces you to make the best decision.. 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Charadis
My grammar is atrocious tonight. Added more infos, too

[nicci78]

Every Leica get hit by 30 to 40% loss after one or two years.  But not that much after. They will settle to a floor price and never go lower. Just checked steady prices of all Xs, M8/M9 cameras. They are still selling well in second hand market.

The only exception is the T body only which can reach a very very low price and still find no buyer. But with a lens, it will fly off the shelves. 

 

The best decision is to have both cameras. They are made for each other. CL + Q/Q2. 

They either shares quite similar ergonomics, same built quality and same battery (Q). Or the exact same ergonomics (Q2)

They compliment each other : superb large aperture fixed wide angle camera + interchangeable system camera. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by nicci78

[kentishrev]

To compare the Q and the CL is unfair - they are not two versions of the same thing. To my mind the Q is a fixed-lens M, whilst the CL is a competitor in the wider interchangeable lens, mirrorless market.  The choice is therefore on what you want the camera to do, rather than whether it holds its value.  For me, as an M user (film and digital) the Q holds little appeal, whereas the CL has enabled me to use my M glass on a lighter, more flexible body in circumstances that demand it.

I did look at a high-end Fujifilm APSC with an M adaptor, but the whole thing felt too plastic and temporary. I tried the CL and knew I’d found the camera I was looking for.

I buy for my needs, not resale value.

[lct]

+1. Curious to choose a camera for its resale value. Better buy a collectors and keep it unsealed then. BTW i didn't feel my Fuji X-E2 and adapter too plastic but its sensor stack is too thick and its EVF doesn't play in the same league as  the CL's. I have no experience with current Fuji bodies though. 

[kentishrev]

17 minutes ago, lct said:

BTW i didn't feel my Fuji X-E2 and adapter too plastic but its sensor stack is too thick and its EVF doesn't play in the same league as  the CL's. I have no experience with current Fuji bodies though. 

I think it was the X-E3 I looked at - having read every review I could, I went to Park Cameras with every intention of buying it. I came away with the CL (not from their sales patter, but my choice). An expensive alternative, but without doubt the right one.

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, Stevinci said:

Le Chef, even if I bought a used Leica CL with lens, I'd still take a significant financial loss upon resale. This is what I have a difficult time with.   Also - hey, I admit this -- my Ebay observation made me question any hype I've read about how good the Leica CL is.  I apologize if this comment upsets anyone.  Why be upset?  I've admitted that I have not tried the CL.  Perhaps it's a brilliant camera and if tried one, all these ramblings would disappear.  I'll wait this out.  I'd prefer to find a used Leica CL on sale at a more reasonable price.

I don't think you've upset anyone here. I think we're all baffled why someone would buy Leica but have price and resale value as a priority! Most discussion here that concerns price are along the lines of "what can I get for the money I can beg, borrow or steal?" rather than "what can I get when I sell it?". 

I think, with no exceptions, I have taken a loss on any camera and lens I've sold, allowing for inflation, and often a big loss. The smallest losses have been on the cheapest equipment - prices have less far to fall.

In the end it's simply your decision: is it good value for you to buy? If not, don't.

Edited August 17, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

Just found a near mint copy with full 2y warranty for 1,500 EUR at a reputable dealer in Austria. Sounds like the CL2 could come sooner than expected but i may be wrong. https://tinyurl.com/y5z8yor6

[Stevinci]

I have a more practical question.  Who has used the Leica 18-56mm TL lens?  What do you think of it?  I know it's a slower lens but other than taking the occasional photos during golden hour, I'm not inclined to take photos when the sun is down.   Charadis, I smiled when I read about your silver Leica CL purchase, and I appreciate the information about how you get the full manual.  The silver version is beautiful.   I'm glad I took a healthy break about thinking about equipment.   I am from Maryland originally and need to go there in a week.  Maybe I'll swing by the Leica Store in Washington, DC.   They should have a CL and Q (or Q2) to handle.  

[jaapv]

Arguably the best standard zoom for APS-C on the market. It s my go-to lens on the CL.

[geoffreyg]

re: 18-56: love it. Great lens. Holds up remarkably well even with fine landscape detail prints 22" wide. 

[nicci78]

 at Leica shop MacMahon Photo in Paris. Demo unit of silver CL with box was sold 1500€ with VAT and 2 years of warranty. 

I almost buy it to complement my CL and get rid of Q. I finally opted for the Q2.

In another Leica stores at Paris. Used black CL is sold 1650€ with 1 year warranty. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by nicci78

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[Herr Barnack]

On 8/15/2019 at 8:15 PM, jaapv said:

Respect? Appeal? Who cares? These are cameras, they are made to take photographs. Which is precisely what to do, pretty well too. Nor are ebay sales very interesting. We all know that digital cameras lose their value pretty quickly. If an amateur one writes off the camera against pleasure the first minute of ownership, if professional against taxes over a few years. What hopeful punters try to gain on eBay has little or no relevance in real life.

I'm in 100% agreement.

This is photography, not a popularity contest.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Herr Barnack