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Am I certified crazy for considering the M-A?


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4 minutes ago, otto.f said:

 

Oh, the thread where the poster complained about a lens seating problem on the M-A only to later state that he had a similar issue seating the same lens on his M10.  Not sure I'd conclude that there's some sort of quality issue with the M-A from that.

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In some cases where problems are reported I get the impression that the buyer may have had unrealistic expectations of perfection. There are many examples of people complaining about noises when cameras are rotated or lenses upended. I think somebody returned an M-A because the leather on the rear door had faint traces of a crease or something like that. The problem with the loose bayonet mount could probably be quickly put right with a slight tweak of the offending lens or mount. Other specific problems related to the M-A are reports of frame spacing irregularities or a lack of space between frames. I own two M-A bodies of which one body was replaced and the other serviced within warranty. Annoying for sure but Leica handled it well.

Going forward, a new M-A or MP faces the same uncertainty in the longer term as other Leica film bodies. All film bodies are ultimately dependent on there being decent service personnel to keep these cameras going when problems arise.

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7 hours ago, otto.f said:

As if you wouldn’t be able to develop a long-term attachment with an M4 bought secondhand. My bond with my M4 is stronger than with quite a few M’s I bought new. I even sold my brand new M6 in the 90’s and returned to an M4. It’s really more about the type of camera you prefer. I indeed love my M9 more than that M6 and will never sell it.

The M9 is still fantastic, it's a cult camera.

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2 hours ago, WvE said:

it's a cult camera.

Starting to; thanks to you 😄. But I admit that I prefer my photo’s from Patagonia that are shot with the M9 above those from the SL. The saturation in the current generation sensors in the M10 and SL is a serious problem that needs attention from Leica. This wouldn’t be so bad if it was film, you can choose one or another one for different situations. But the blue in the glaciers in Patagonia was really too much compared to the M9. If the discussion of CCD vs. CMOS is bullshit then I’m very eager to see whether Leica can come up with a CMOS sensor that gives such neutral colors as the M9. 

Edited by otto.f
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19 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

making life somewhat easier

An incident lightmeter like the Gossen digisix makes life easy in a different way; it rules out the reflective properties of the subject, which makes it very fast. 

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On 8/11/2019 at 4:19 AM, jaapv said:

You are asking in the wrong place. We are all certified crazy here.

Reading your post, I cannot but help thinking that  there is no way that you are going to wiggle off this hook. You obviously know what you are doing photographically, understand the use and attraction of a film rangefinder camera and clearly desire this camera.

My advice would be to stop torturing yourself and go and buy the thing. This will be the one camera that will be sitting beside your rocking chair in the old people's home. There will be times in your life that you'll use it less - photography is ever moving in the direction of extreme quality convenience- and there will be times that you will use it  more, but you will always pick it up and feel the same thrill and inspiration that you felt the day you bought it.

 

@White Buffalo,

One immutable truth and one solid piece of advice there. 

I would encourage you to take a look at the M4-P, too.  In almost every way, it is the twin brother to the M-A (age difference notwithstanding).

a mint condition M4-P is truly a thing of beauty, especially the chrome version; mine is the black chrome version, but it is still a beautiful camera.

I had a 2003 birth date black paint MP and the M4-P at the same time and found the M4-P to be more reliable.  Ultimately, I traded away the MP and have not regretted it.  Sometimes beauty is only skin deep...

Edited by Herr Barnack
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26 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

@White Buffalo,

One immutable truth and one solid piece of advice there. 

I would encourage you to take a look at the M4-P, too.  In almost every way, it is the twin brother to the M-A (age difference notwithstanding).

a mint condition M4-P is truly a thing of beauty, especially the chrome version; mine is the black chrome version, but it is still a beautiful camera.

I had a 2003 birth date black paint MP and the M4-P at the same time and found the M4-P to be more reliable.  Ultimately, I traded away the MP and have not regretted it.  Sometimes beauty is only skin deep...

Herr Barnack, you are absolutely right for the M4-P as twin brother to the M-A.

That is why I kept two of M4-P, they never fail in use which it's not the case of many M4 (I'm not lucky user with those M4 while maintaining once in a while, they tend to fail regularly, in use).

Even now I do have one M4 with broken shutter and I wait for repairing or sell as is later.

I was long time believer of M4, my first M which served me well, and bought a couple of them * ,  but time decided otherwise.

but ...

The OP, White Buffalo wants new M-A, and it would be difficult to find new M4-P

 

* over decades, in different colors as usual silver chrome, black chrome, black paint

I had with them (Wetzlar M4 so praised by most include me) so many "broken" once in a while that I don't trust them anymore

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1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

 

I would encourage you to take a look at the M4-P, too.  In almost every way, it is the twin brother to the M-A (age difference notwithstanding).

a mint condition M4-P is truly a thing of beauty, especially the chrome version; mine is the black chrome version, but it is still a beautiful camera.

 

The M4-P is not quite a twin brother of the M-A as there are many differences. However I would agree that it is a great camera and I have a virtually mint one which I use a lot. I still prefer the M-A though and the OP seems set on that course.

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2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Herr Barnack, you are absolutely right for the M4-P as twin brother to the M-A.

That is why I kept two of M4-P, they never fail in use which it's not the case of many M4 (I'm not lucky user with those M4 while maintaining once in a while, they tend to fail regularly, in use).

Even now I do have one M4 with broken shutter and I wait for repairing or sell as is later.

I was long time believer of M4, my first M which served me well, and bought a couple of them * ,  but time decided otherwise.

but ...

The OP, White Buffalo wants new M-A, and it would be difficult to find new M4-P

 

* over decades, in different colors as usual silver chrome, black chrome, black paint

I had with them (Wetzlar M4 so praised by most include me) so many "broken" once in a while that I don't trust them anymore

True - once you have your heart set on a specific M camera or lens and your M GAS/OCD kicks in to high gear, nothing else will do.  I had that experience with my 50/1.0 Noctilux back in 2008 (I still have it, by the way; it's a lifetime lens IMHO).

As for the M4-P, it is getting tough to find mint examples these days.  I was very fortunate to find one that my M dealer acquired from an setate sale.  It had by all appearances been bought and stashed away.  As far as I could tell, it had never had even one roll of film put through it. 

After giving it some more thought, I think i have to go along with you - White Buffalo should probably just get the M-A since it has stolen his heart. 

@Matlock, you are right about the differences between the M-A and M4-P; they are not an exact match up but they are close.  I think a guy (or gal) wouldn't get too far off track no matter which one (s)he decided on.

Edited by Herr Barnack
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Out of topic,

comparing M-A to M4-P is much easier than M-A /MP ...

- M-A has much better viewfinder (the best of what I've used so far) than M4-P and better contrast, clarity of the patch, no flare, a hair ...better than MP

- framelines in M-A are more or less same as M4-P

- wind-on lever on M4-P is plastic articulated lever more comfortable (... if not prettier )  than the solid metal of M-A/MP

- rewind crank of M4-P is faster to rewind (couples of seconds less to rewind 😉) than the knob of M-A/MP

- the "real" vulcanite of M4-P is a joy to hold comparing to the slippy MP (that I had), better yet the almost soft leather grip on M-A

 

So M-A is not perfect (for me), I'd like on it some features as x0.85 VF on one (of the two) for longer lenses that I use (or Noctilux, why not, so I don't need magnifier),

or articulated wind-on lever (someday I'll swap this lever from M4 or M6, if I'm brave enough)

I known that the rewind knob can be equipped with add-on crank/lever, but on my ex-MP it hurt my digits when rewinding

 

Edited by a.noctilux
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On 8/11/2019 at 3:58 PM, a.noctilux said:

Thanks Jaap,

 As we talk about film ...

I've never used the TriX roll which came with M-A.

Must be kind of collector now, expired for some years now I bet.

 

Asking new M-A buyers (Paddycook as well),

what is the expire date of your TriX packed with your new M-A ?

To answer this question, expiry date is 02/2020

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 1:30 PM, a.noctilux said:

- M-A has much better viewfinder (the best of what I've used so far) than M4-P and better contrast, clarity of the patch, no flare, a hair ...better than MP

Is this accurate?  I don't have an M-A so I can't argue this from direct experience, but my understanding is that the only difference between the M-A and MP finders is that the MP's lower frame lines for 28mm are broken up by the meter readout, where on the M-A it's a solid line.  Aside from that, most everything I've read says they're identical.

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34 minutes ago, Jon Glass said:

Is this accurate?  I don't have an M-A so I can't argue this from direct experience, but my understanding is that the only difference between the M-A and MP finders is that the MP's lower frame lines for 28mm are broken up by the meter readout, where on the M-A it's a solid line.  Aside from that, most everything I've read says they're identical.

I didn't read it,

but compared when I had the  two with kind of "suspicious mind" :

not scientific, only my feeling and this is only for me, maybe the MP's finder was less clean

or something else as it's older and used not pristine new M-A by then

like this, side by side ... 😉

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Jon,

If you have opportunity to look in MP's VF, you would see that the 35mm field lacks also complete frame lines in x0.72 MP,

or as x0.85 MP which I had, the 50mm field also (not available in M-A this 0.85 variety though)

 

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I have thought about upgrading from my current M6 to an M-P [I have also considered an M-A, but I'm too reliant on a light meter] but when I do the arithmetic, namely (cost of camera) / (rolls of film per year) it makes sense to stick.

Referring to your sister threads on lens choice. In your shoes I would purchase second hand (or consider Voigtlander or Zeiss if you must purchase new) at least until you're absolutely sure RF and Film photography are for you. If you 'shoot' only 10 or 20 rolls in a year the 'cost per frame' is going to be really expensive if you sum the cost of the M-A and a new 35 FLE for example.

BTW, I've just recently purchased a 'new to me', but second hand, 7Artisans 28mm f1.4 and it's a blast. The outlay for the lens is buttons in the scheme of Leica RF photography, and I'm loving it on my M240 which allows me to quickly review my work and hopefully shorten the learning curve for using the 28mm effectively. 7A do a range of lenses worth considering, the 28 (I've mentioned), 35, 50 and a recently  added 75mm. You could purchase the lot for cost of a Leica lens. If I was starting out it would be something I would seriously consider.

 

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On 8/11/2019 at 5:24 PM, White Buffalo said:

A little bit about me... 

I am a full-time fashion photographer for about ten years now (started in the industry at 19, now 29). I've had stints with film, previously shooting an RZ67 Pro II, Sinar F1, and currently with a 503cw and P67II in the stable- sadly, I don't use them an awful lot, though I'm going to make an active effort to do so moving forward. By and large the bulk of my work is conducted with digital- just upgraded to a D850 a couple days ago; previously used the D800 since release. The lure of digitals vastly expedited workflow is just far too appealing to mess with film, though then I'll get back scans and yeah, there's a special and undeniable quality to film that digital can't come close to emulating, even with heaps of post. I do a combination of both studio and location work and use both natural and artificial light- all depends on the project/mood.

Back when I was around 16 or 17 I attended a big photo show with a friend at a nearby community centre. I didn't know a thing about cameras then, but distinctly remember being enamoured by all the old film cameras there- there's just something about them, even from just a purely physical/tactile perspective, that you don't get with digital. I guess "they don't make 'em like they used to" is apt here. I remember seeing my first Pentax 67 there and being in awe of its bulk. The one truly standout thing I saw at that show though was a Leica M. I can't remember what kind it was- they all looked the same to me-, but what immediately stuck out even to 16 year old me was how supremely well made a product it was. This thing was the epitome of solid. Although this was now 13 years ago, I'll never forget first contact with my first Leica- it was the most congruent feeling item I'd ever held, and it went deeper than it just being hefty and made of solid metal... everything just felt so perfectly married together, with no loose bits or any funny stuff. Of course ownership was nowhere on the horizon, so it just remained a distant dream. Truth be told, while that first and formative experience was great, a Leica was never really something I lusted too deeply for. The rangefinder system was foreign and frightening to me, plus the prices were just so exorbitant. While I remained aware of them, they essentially fell completely out of my mind/interest for over a decade. 

Fast forward to winter 2018. I'm in Vienna and happen upon the Leica Store there. I stumble in and get some hands-on time (no shots fired though) with a used M6 they've got. Instantly I'm taken back to that first encounter with the photo show M all those years ago, thinking "holy crap, I've never felt anything so solid, congruent, or well thought out". I've been somewhat of a snob among various forums over the years and have an acute sense for discerning quality- it's a blessing, but mostly a curse. The idea that I absolutely had to own a Leica was at that point solidified in my mind. The physicality of it aside, finally getting some hands-on time with one and being able to work the focus ring and rangefinder system proved to be as easy as could be- in fact, I'm pretty certain I prefer it to the SLR style focusing I've grown accustomed to, especially being someone who wears glasses. I almost bought that M6 on the spot in Vienna, but ultimately didn't feel comfortable doing so as I just didn't know enough about them to feel good about it. Mostly referring to the different magnifications, but also recall reading something about there being better eras than others and something about the paint on the zinc M's warping or something funny after a while or exposure to certain climates. Flew back home to Canada shortly after with a very strong impression made on me by that Leica, which prompted me to start doing serious research as I intended to get one asap after that experience. 

Of course I was aware of the MP, as I recall drooling over various iterations of it on eBay (sort by: highest price) as a teen, but after getting home and killing some hours researching which Leica to buy, I came across the M-A. Instantly I was drawn to this model, largely because it's 100% mechanical, but also because of the sleek black chrome aesthetic, and the fact it's brand new. To me, there's something romantic about getting a brand new piece of gear like this, which you'll imprint 100% of your photographic journey on- nobody else will have taken any shots on it before you, but they very well might after you're gone, the camera then having a rich and full life under its belt. 

Soon after discovering the M-A, I came across various reviews and threads full of people saying the camera makes no sense as it's essentially an M4/M4-P, which could be bought at a fraction of the M-A's cost. I get that, and if you're being pragmatic, it's of course the obvious choice. But what if you're sick in the head, super impulsive, and bad with your money like me? Frankly, I have absolutely no idea who or what the M-A was designed for. How a camera such as this is still in production (surely in very minimal numbers) in 2019 is beyond me... but I like it. Who is buying these things though? Seriously. Any idea re: sales figures? I have a hard time imagining more than 100 of these selling per annum. Is it a status symbol, a fashion accessory, a collectors item/speculators piece, or are actual photographers using these things? 

I'm at a point where I could buy one no problem, along with a Summicron 50 (or maybe 35), but also not quite at a point where the purchase wouldn't sting on some level, mostly just because I'd constantly be thinking "$5k just for a film camera body?!?!". I love everything about the M-A, except the price... even though I can afford it, there comes a point where you objectively have to think about these things and Leica has priced this camera so that you have no choice but to think about it, even if you've the means. It's like I'm simultaneously trying to both talk myself into, yet out of the camera. For the price of the body alone I could get two other complete Leica kits, bodies + lenses. But they will be used, old, and with someone else's imprint on them. 

Then there's my trepidation regarding whether I'll even use the thing in my work. I'm not quite sure how it will fit into the flow of things here. Part of me thinks that the chief impetus behind wanting one is to just have it because it's a nice, supremely made, aesthetically pleasing thing- just being honest. I really appreciate well-made products and this really is a pinnacle item and lovely piece of engineering. Of course I'll try to utilize it in my fashion/portrait work, but am aware that rangefinders aren't ideal in such a context- that said, things like that often yield more interesting results. But as with my Hassy 503cw and Pentax 67II, both purchased within the last year, the thought of owning and shooting on them seems much more exciting than the actual reality of owning them and having to deal with all the not fun parts of film. Maybe being smaller/lighter and with more frames at my disposal the Leica would be a more appealing option to me... who knows. 

Am I certified crazy for considering the M-A? 

I think we're all crazy! FFS were photographers.

As a fellow professional photographer *who made his living from advertising photography back in the early 80's - mid/late 90's. All of my career was in film *Hasselblad primarily a little Nikon with digital Kodak DSC760 6.3mp beast at the end.

I always had a Leica facination. It was a scratch that was never itched .... Until the past 2/3 years.

In short - I did the financial math.

All of my Nikon digital gear traded on a M4 BP and Summilux 50, so it did not cost me (out of pocket).

 

I would recommend going into your preferred bricks and mortar shop and play with the Leica M-A. I would also recommend putting your preferred lenses on and bring the camera to your eye. Look at the framelines and see if these distract or facilitate your shooting style. A rangefinder style of shooting is very different from a Hassy/Pentax 67 or even the D/SLR

 

Best of luck, you've come to the right place.

Like a bag of licorice allsorts, some good some not so good. It all comes from the heart.

(Assuming you like licorice - otherwise add you choice of poison)

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On 8/29/2019 at 3:55 AM, EddieJ said:

I think we're all crazy! FFS were photographers.

...

I would recommend going into your preferred bricks and mortar shop and play with the Leica M-A. I would also recommend putting your preferred lenses on and bring the camera to your eye. Look at the framelines and see if these distract or facilitate your shooting style. A rangefinder style of shooting is very different from a Hassy/Pentax 67 or even the D/SLR

 

Best of luck, you've come to the right place.

Like a bag of licorice allsorts, some good some not so good. It all comes from the heart.

(Assuming you like licorice - otherwise add you choice of poison)

Play with M-A ?

I don't know how many shops that show M-A as "demo".

In many countries, M-A only on order with weeks or months of waiting for the next batch.

😉

If I follow the OP White Buffalo had ordered his M-A and he is waiting for one to come.

 

Edited by a.noctilux
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