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X cameras are not for everybody. What you consider as user friendly with the X Vario. I found it awkward.

Because the directional keys are scattered with function buttons. 

You have to press focus button first before moving focus point. Way too slow. 

Then really slow AF is not acceptable in 2019. 

 

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The last is not a bad thing for learning. A beginner should use a camera on manual focus to learn the meaning of the plane of focus and DOF. To me, the best tool to learn photography is a  Leica M with the shutter speed taken off "A". At least with the CL one can use it with an M lens. Primes are better anyway, to get a feeling for perspective and composition in relationship to focal length. (yes, I know, focal length does not determine perspective, but in real life it does by forcing the photographer to choose his position)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

X cameras are not for everybody. What you consider as user friendly with the X Vario. I found it awkward.

Because the directional keys are scattered with function buttons. 

You have to press focus button first before moving focus point. Way too slow. 

Then really slow AF is not acceptable in 2019. 

 

Clearly we have different views on camera features better suited to learning. A beginner needs easy access to basic controls of shutter speed, lens aperture, ISO , light metering, focal length and focusing distance. Speed of focusing can come later after they have mastered manual and zone focusing. Sadly, too few people nowadays have the required patience to learn the fundamentals. They want easy automation and instant results, in all walks of life.

Edited by wda

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The only X to consider (imho) would be the X113, it's like a mini Q but I think a young user would prefer the ability to change lenses so she can borrow Dad's M collection.

I think if I were to buy my daughter a 'real' camera, presuming you mean a Leica, then I would have to say the CL over the Q really, adaptable to many vintage lenses including M. The EVF is stunning, it handles very well, has bundles of trendy cool factor with many accessories available too.

My opinion of a 'real' camera in todays world would be Monochrom and Noctilux for me (I miss mine so much) but everyone is different with different ideals.

 

My vote? Leica CL with 23 Cron to get her going.

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4 hours ago, Marac said:

 

 

My vote? Leica CL with 23 Cron to get her going.

My first response was the 23, but maybe a 25mm Zeiss so she can learn how to focus a camera, I think JAAP was right. The CL on manual is not an M, but you can learn a lot from it. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, tommonego@gmail.com said:

My first response was the 23, but maybe a 25mm Zeiss so she can learn how to focus a camera, I think JAAP was right. The CL on manual is not an M, but you can learn a lot from it. 

+1. For starters, a manual focus lens teaches the exposure triangle and DoF. TL lenses are great, but I always feel more connected to the process when I have a manual focus lens on the camera.

Edited by bags27

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49 minutes ago, tommonego@gmail.com said:

My first response was the 23, but maybe a 25mm Zeiss so she can learn how to focus a camera, I think JAAP was right. The CL on manual is not an M, but you can learn a lot from it. 

The 23 can also be used in MF mode but also offers AF for when needed unlike a MF lens, that was my thinking, but whatever.

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"Visible analog controls" is an older person's mentality about what's easy to use or not. :)

The reason the CL has replaced the M in my use is that I find it supremely easy to use. When I turn a knob, I see the results and settings on the LCD instantly ... who needs the dial to be marked? I'm not looking at it. I can tailor the buttons and dials to to what I want, exactly, to a greater extent than I really need, and once set up, I know where everything is and don't forget it. 

I use only M and R lenses on it. To me, focusing is part of photography and AF is too complicated to work around its foibles compared to manual focus. I get far more misses when I use an AF camera than I do when I'm focusing manually ... to me, it takes control away from the user. 

But I remain of the opinion that the person receiving the gift of a camera should participate in choosing the camera. No matter how young or inexperienced she might be, letting her assess what she wants and likes is the way to motivating her to use and learn whatever you buy for her. 

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How old is your daughter, and what is her social life like? Are her social life and habits suitable to carry a few thousand dollars worth of camera gear? How would her friends react to her carrying the monetary equivalent of a YSL or LV handbag in camera form? Just thinking outside of the gear aspect of what camera would best suit someone.

As for CL vs Q, I would go with the CL. With the kit zoom she gets a lot of flexibility and great image quality, and the camera is small enough to go in a bag without too much effort. The system gives her room to grow, which wouldn't happen with a Q.

My first camera was a 110 cassette camera at 12, and then a Kodak disc camera at 13. Looking back, what would have suited me and my lifestyle would have been an Olympus XA or XA2 because they are small, hardy and easy to use. Even through uni, I would have been well served by an Olympus XA, maybe graduating to a Pentax MX for better quality images and manual control. I learned to shoot with Dad's Pentax ME and Minolta SR-T Super, under careful supervision. Around that time, the M6 was in production, but I am not sure if I would have been careful enough with it at university age, nor would my friends have understood the value of it.

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1 minute ago, Dave in Wales said:

CL does not have IS, the Q does..;)

Not a deal-breaker 😊

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Posted (edited)

As your daughter is  twenty six I'm sort of guessing she may know exactly what camera she wants.  Maybe Dad should just go along on shopping trip with credit card in hand, offering advice, knowledge but most of all, payment😁.

I had to wait till my 60th birthday for my first Leica, and yes, bought by my lovely Dad who knew I had wanted an M forever, and even though I could well afford one couldn't bring myself to spend so much money on myself.. somehow that wonderful gift changed my perceptions and I have since happily splurged in the red dot world.  

 

 

Edited by Boojay

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19 minutes ago, Dave in Wales said:

CL does not have IS, the Q does..;)

Yes, I wondered about the Q having it. It is a bit OTT with a Summilux 28 mm lens. At any rate, the lady in question being twenty years old, probably has steady hands.

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