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jonoslack

Panasonic S1 Field report from SL User

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4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There

I've spent the last 3 months shooting a Panasonic S1 along with my SL and CL, and shooting the Panasonic L mount lenses along with my Leica SL and TL lenses.

Here is a report on it:

https://www.slack.co.uk/lumix-s1.html

All the best

Jonathan Slack

Thank you for your S1 field report. In your report you’ve clearly gave your experience on improvements on facial recognition of S1 over SL and meeting your expectations.

Did you have positive feedback with 90-280mm on the S1? In using the 90-280mm on SL, I have often experienced the focus moving the opposite direction against the focal point before moving back while I continue pressing on the shutter trigger on AF-C setting. Does the same happen on the  S1?

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38 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

Thank you for your S1 field report. In your report you’ve clearly gave your experience on improvements on facial recognition of S1 over SL and meeting your expectations.

Did you have positive feedback with 90-280mm on the S1? In using the 90-280mm on SL, I have often experienced the focus moving the opposite direction against the focal point before moving back while I continue pressing on the shutter trigger on AF-C setting. Does the same happen on the  S1?

Hi There

I found the 90-280 to be really good on the S1 - but I haven't experienced the focus point moving in the opposite direction with the SL - not that I use continuous AF very often anyway. 

Sorry not to be of more help - I'll see if I can duplicate the issue with both cameras and come back if I can!

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6 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Thank you for your S1 field report. In your report you’ve clearly gave your experience on improvements on facial recognition of S1 over SL and meeting your expectations.

Did you have positive feedback with 90-280mm on the S1? In using the 90-280mm on SL, I have often experienced the focus moving the opposite direction against the focal point before moving back while I continue pressing on the shutter trigger on AF-C setting. Does the same happen on the  S1?

I can't talk about the S1, but S1R does behave much better than the SL regarding AF-C, and I have not experienced the above stated focus problem on S1R. S1R handles well situations like people walking/jogging towards you, but AF-C does not work for e.g. birds in flight, here I rely on Nikon D5/D850.

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4 hours ago, helged said:

I can't talk about the S1, but S1R does behave much better than the SL regarding AF-C, and I have not experienced the above stated focus problem on S1R. S1R handles well situations like people walking/jogging towards you, but AF-C does not work for e.g. birds in flight, here I rely on Nikon D5/D850.

Thanks Helged.

I just curious what is the reason you mentioned the AF-C on S1R does not work on BIF? I’ve used my SL on BIF and Jet fly passes with modest results. The settings I’ve used were medium continuous drive, AF-C, dynamic tracking and single point. I mentioned modest results cause I typically will get soft focused shots in between sharp images. It seems the AF-C on the SL is constantly adjusting focus but not accurate enough. The other problem is I often did encounter the AF going the opposite direction after I depressed the shutter release for continuous shooting (I typically prefocus at a distance close to my subject entry into frame distance but instead of getting sharper images, the AF on subsequent frames go off completely becoming back).  I also get surprising sharp pics in between soft images on occasions during image processing when the EVF showed nothing but completely out of focus shots.

Most of my encounter above happens when I am my 90-280 + SL in the  sky for BIF & flybys. I do confirm the focusing rates improved tremendously when the sun is strong and behind me.

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3 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Thanks Helged.

I just curious what is the reason you mentioned the AF-C on S1R does not work on BIF? I’ve used my SL on BIF and Jet fly passes with modest results. The settings I’ve used were medium continuous drive, AF-C, dynamic tracking and single point. I mentioned modest results cause I typically will get soft focused shots in between sharp images. It seems the AF-C on the SL is constantly adjusting focus but not accurate enough. The other problem is I often did encounter the AF going the opposite direction after I depressed the shutter release for continuous shooting (I typically prefocus at a distance close to my subject entry into frame distance but instead of getting sharper images, the AF on subsequent frames go off completely becoming back).  I also get surprising sharp pics in between soft images on occasions during image processing when the EVF showed nothing but completely out of focus shots.

Most of my encounter above happens when I am my 90-280 + SL in the  sky for BIF & flybys. I do confirm the focusing rates improved tremendously when the sun is strong and behind me.

For me, SL can (generally) not be trusted for BIF. And with BIF, I mean unpredicted, fast-moving birds (or whatever) where you only have a few seconds to get the shot. 

There are several problems with S1R regarding AFC, I think: Firstly, it is generally too slow to focus. It may work if you can prefocus, otherwise it is simply too slow. The second problem is that the AFC tends to pick the backround and stay there. A possible third problem is that the focus area seems to be too large. On eg Nikon D5/D850, point focus is really a point, whereas the S1R seems to have a (much) larger focus area, despite setting the af to point focus. 

In the new FW you can set a prefocus range (near, far field). I haven't tested this, but it may help. But after several 1000 test shots og birds on Shetland in May, with very, very few keepers, I keep using Nikon DSR for BIF...

@michali (and others) may add his/their experiences as well; there are a few discussions about S1R's ability for BIF in various S1/S1R threads.

One sort of keeper, with prefocussed lens: 

 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, helged said:

For me, SL can (generally) not be trusted for BIF. And with BIF, I mean unpredicted, fast-moving birds (or whatever) where you only have a few seconds to get the shot. 

There are several problems with S1R regarding AFC, I think: Firstly, it is generally too slow to focus. It may work if you can prefocus, otherwise it is simply too slow. The second problem is that the AFC tends to pick the backround and stay there. A possible third problem is that the focus area seems to be too large. On eg Nikon D5/D850, point focus is really a point, whereas the S1R seems to have a (much) larger focus area, despite setting the af to point focus. 

In the new FW you can set a prefocus range (near, far field). I haven't tested this, but it may help. But after several 1000 test shots og birds on Shetland in May, with very, very few keepers, I keep using Nikon DSR for BIF...

@michali (and others) may add his/their experiences as well; there are a few discussions about S1R's ability for BIF in various S1/S1R threads.

One sort of keeper, with prefocussed lens: 

 

Thanks for sharing!

I was running through some of your earlier post on S1R + 90-280mm, it seems AFC on S1R is hopeless on tracking fast moving subjects. I guess it makes sense for me to wait for SL2 then  as I had pretty reasonable results from SL giving more hope and confidence that SL2 should do better than S1R on focus tracking. Besides 90-280 is native to Leica than Panasonic.

Edited by sillbeers15

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, helged said:

For me, SL can (generally) not be trusted for BIF. And with BIF, I mean unpredicted, fast-moving birds (or whatever) where you only have a few seconds to get the shot. 

There are several problems with S1R regarding AFC, I think: Firstly, it is generally too slow to focus. It may work if you can prefocus, otherwise it is simply too slow. The second problem is that the AFC tends to pick the backround and stay there. A possible third problem is that the focus area seems to be too large. On eg Nikon D5/D850, point focus is really a point, whereas the S1R seems to have a (much) larger focus area, despite setting the af to point focus. 

In the new FW you can set a prefocus range (near, far field). I haven't tested this, but it may help. But after several 1000 test shots og birds on Shetland in May, with very, very few keepers, I keep using Nikon DSR for BIF...

@michali (and others) may add his/their experiences as well; there are a few discussions about S1R's ability for BIF in various S1/S1R threads.

One sort of keeper, with prefocussed lens: 

 

I concur with what Helged says regarding birds in fight with the S1R.  I really like  the camera and the images that it produces. I've had the opportunity to take it on several safaris In Botswana and South Africa, it's performed flawlessly.

However I'm still struggling with mastering the AF  for BIF, I've probably had only 2 keepers out of numerous attempts.

See below- both images with the Leica VE 90-280mm SL on the S1R:

White Faced Whistling Ducks

Reed Cormorant

Best,

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by michali

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8 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Thanks for sharing!

I was running through some of your earlier post on S1R + 90-280mm, it seems AFC on S1R is hopeless on tracking fast moving subjects. I guess it makes sense for me to wait for SL2 then  as I had pretty reasonable results from SL giving more hope and confidence that SL2 should do better than S1R on focus tracking. Besides 90-280 is native to Leica than Panasonic.

Panasonic have mitigated some of the issues of CDAF with smart firmware but cannot (and probably never will) match PDAF and the sort of processing power Sony manages to achieve. I would be astonished if Leica produce anything better than Panasonic on the SL2 when it comes to AF speed or reliability ..... unless they have some very innovative secret technology .... 

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6 hours ago, michali said:

I concur with what Helged says regarding birds in fight with the S1R.  I really like  the camera and the images that it produces. I've had the opportunity to take it on several safaris In Botswana and South Africa, it's performed flawlessly.

However I'm still struggling with mastering the AF  for BIF, I've probably had only 2 keepers out of numerous attempts.

See below- both images with the Leica VE 90-280mm SL on the S1R:

White Faced Whistling Ducks

Reed Cormorant

Best,

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been using handheld shooting of BIF & Flyby for sometime using SL+80-280VE on AFC dynamic tracking with modest success rates.

On several occasions, mates using 1DX has mis focused shots shots which the SL survived. I do not believe that PDAF is the 100% success rate silver bullet. Now I'm not saying that the SL CDAF is brilliant, but it can be used with moderate success provided the user optimises the equipment well. Having a good light source behind me vastly improves contrast detect AF success rate.

L1050613 by sillbeers15

L1010988 by sillbeers15

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1 hour ago, thighslapper said:

Panasonic have mitigated some of the issues of CDAF with smart firmware but cannot (and probably never will) match PDAF and the sort of processing power Sony manages to achieve. I would be astonished if Leica produce anything better than Panasonic on the SL2 when it comes to AF speed or reliability ..... unless they have some very innovative secret technology .... 

I’m not looking for a camera with the best in class AF but rather I found the camera system with the best in class glass. So between the SL and S1R or and SL2, I’m looking for AF tracking improvements which I believe should exist after a 36 months period of time difference. 

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18 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

I’m not looking for a camera with the best in class AF but rather I found the camera system with the best in class glass. So between the SL and S1R or and SL2, I’m looking for AF tracking improvements which I believe should exist after a 36 months period of time difference. 

I'm pretty sure that you'll see some improvements - even if not quite perfection.

best

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9 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I'm pretty sure that you'll see some improvements - even if not quite perfection.

best

😀

 

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There's a full review of the S1R on DP Review: Lumix S1R Review Conclusion page  about 1/3 of the way down the page, above the image of what looks like a junkyard, there's a paragraph about the AF. This mirrors what we're talking about.

The bottom line, speaking personally, is  that the AF weaknesses on the S1R are not a deal breaker. The image quality, and the ability to use Leica SL lenses seamlessly is what counts. And I would think the same would apply to most people here.

I've always mostly relied on manual focus, as I always felt I have more control over things, it's infuriating trying to take a pic with a lens that's hunting all over the place for focus. To a greater or lesser extent all camera/lens systems will do this from time to time. 

Best,

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, michali said:

There's a full review of the S1R on DP Review: Lumix S1R Review Conclusion page  about 1/3 of the way down the page, above the image of what looks like a junkyard, there's a paragraph about the AF. This mirrors what we're talking about.

The bottom line, speaking personally, is  that the AF weaknesses on the S1R are not a deal breaker. The image quality, and the ability to use Leica SL lenses seamlessly is what counts. And I would think the same would apply to most people here.

I've always mostly relied on manual focus, as I always felt I have more control over things, it's infuriating trying to take a pic with a lens that's hunting all over the place for focus. To a greater or lesser extent all camera/lens systems will do this from time to time. 

Best,

Mike

Fully agree, with the exception of one feature that is very frustrating. It is almost impossible to quickly and accurately manually focus the SL 90-280 on the S1R. The problem is that focus by wire is not linear, so you typically have to fine tune the manual focus forth and back in order to get the focus. For static subjects, no problem. But try to QUICKLY manual focus a bird or something else in motion. The wire focus kicks in, it accelerates so the focus typically  overshoots, and you have to slowly refocus, and the bird is forever gone. Very frustrating...

Could we please get an option enabeling manual, linear and predicrable focus, Panasonic? 

 

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4 hours ago, michali said:

There's a full review of the S1R on DP Review: Lumix S1R Review Conclusion page  about 1/3 of the way down the page, above the image of what looks like a junkyard, there's a paragraph about the AF. This mirrors what we're talking about.

The bottom line, speaking personally, is  that the AF weaknesses on the S1R are not a deal breaker. The image quality, and the ability to use Leica SL lenses seamlessly is what counts. And I would think the same would apply to most people here.

I've always mostly relied on manual focus, as I always felt I have more control over things, it's infuriating trying to take a pic with a lens that's hunting all over the place for focus. To a greater or lesser extent all camera/lens systems will do this from time to time. 

Best,

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

Thank you for pointing me to the DP Review. I am aware about their articles on S1/S1R since before the lunch of the Pana S series till now, easily two or more revisions took place. 

Firstly all the early reviews done on pre production firmware have been giving poor to not so good review on stills AF tracking plus poor video AF tracking.

So reading any S1/R reviews have the time bearing factor. Those reviews done seriously with video clips showing side by side AF tracking performance against cameras such as Sony A7Rlll can ce taken more seriously as what you see is what you get. I generally discount any reviews that the author just show a few still shots of S1/R and comment that S1R are no good for any action or sports shots because it has CDAF. To me, those guys are lazy and just give safe comments that add no value. As a matter of fact if you catch some of the latest reviews with firmware 1.2, you’ll see the video AF tracking improving vastly.

You can watch the B& H latest reviews that pitch S1R against A7 R lll and Canon EOSR. I always only believe in what I see instead of what I hear. Sorry to be critical when I am passionate, no offence if any.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, michali said:

There's a full review of the S1R on DP Review: Lumix S1R Review Conclusion page  about 1/3 of the way down the page, above the image of what looks like a junkyard, there's a paragraph about the AF. This mirrors what we're talking about.

The bottom line, speaking personally, is  that the AF weaknesses on the S1R are not a deal breaker. The image quality, and the ability to use Leica SL lenses seamlessly is what counts. And I would think the same would apply to most people here.

I've always mostly relied on manual focus, as I always felt I have more control over things, it's infuriating trying to take a pic with a lens that's hunting all over the place for focus. To a greater or lesser extent all camera/lens systems will do this from time to time. 

Best,

Mike

In order to avoid hunting I would like to use focus limits. I think it is implemented in some Sony cameras. You can select through the viewer a closest distance and a remotest distance and AF stays within these limits. This would help a lot to avoid hunting and would generally improve AF speed as the lens is then already close to the desired distance. This is only useful for planable events, but good enough for me, as I try to prepare for events anyway.

I hope that Panasonic or Leica will implement this soon to improve AF for all sorts of predictable events, this can range from portrait in a crowd to sports or even birds in flight. I think this should be easy to implement. Sony calls this AF range control. Could not find it in SL or S1R and am missing it.

I would not need AI to implement this automatically. I’d rather set it manually to control the camera the way I want.

Maybe later AI could learn the typical distances I use with certain targets and finally offer the range selection automatically.

Edited by caissa

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4 hours ago, caissa said:

In order to avoid hunting I would like to use focus limits. I think it is implemented in some Sony cameras. You can select through the viewer a closest distance and a remotest distance and AF stays within these limits. This would help a lot to avoid hunting and would generally improve AF speed as the lens is then already close to the desired distance. This is only useful for planable events, but good enough for me, as I try to prepare for events anyway.

I hope that Panasonic or Leica will implement this soon to improve AF for all sorts of predictable events, this can range from portrait in a crowd to sports or even birds in flight. I think this should be easy to implement. Sony calls this AF range control. Could not find it in SL or S1R and am missing it.

I would not need AI to implement this automatically. I’d rather set it manually to control the camera the way I want.

Maybe later AI could learn the typical distances I use with certain targets and finally offer the range selection automatically.

Panasonic has set that in the latest firmware for S series.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Panasonic has set that in the latest firmware for S series.

Correct, at least for the to 'distances' near and further away...: 

 

Edited by helged

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