M or R (or?) 1:1 macro lens for CL?

[Jonathan Hanson]

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I love my CL and its 18-56 lens. I'm saving for the 55-135 and the 11-23. But $3,000 for the 60mm prime macro/portrait lens is more than I think I can justify. Is there an alternative within (or without) the Leica family I could obtain used that would substitute, with the M adapter?

Thanks for any suggestions . . .

Jonathan

 

[Guest JMF]

I'd suggest the very good and very affordable Leica 60 f2.8 Macro-Elmarit R  mount with a R to M adapter stacked with the M to L adapter.

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[lct]

Another vote for the R 60/2.8 but the M 90/4 macro works fine also. The latter is more expensive though.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Thank you, those are good suggestions! Can either go to 1:1, either with or without a converter?

[lct]

6 minutes ago, Jonathan Hanson said:

Thank you, those are good suggestions! Can either go to 1:1, either with or without a converter?

R 60/2.8 goes to 1:2 alone and 1:1 with Leica Macro-Adapter-R
M 90/4 macro v1 & v2 go to 1:6.7 alone and 1:3 with Leica Macro-Adapter-M

[a.noctilux]

Good suggestions indeed, I use one Macro-Elmarit-R 60 and Macro-Elmar-M 90 since very long on film and digital.

They give very good results, I can't tell when viewing my photos which is which.

Concerning the 1:1 which Lct wrote, this is valid for 24x36,

for APS-C of CL, the field covered is not 1:1.

You may need for each more wider/longer adapter ring or something to get to 1:1

[tommonego@gmail.com]

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Another alternative is another brand with a converter, a 50, 55 or 60mm Nikon, Canon, Contax, Olympus all made excellent macros. I'm right now using a 40mm Makro Kilar and a 90-180 Vivitar Flat Field macro. Most use an extension tube to get to 1:1 but I have a 55 f2.8 AF Nikon (stays on my Nikon) that goes to 1:1, don't know if the 60 does 1:1 without a tube.

 

[tommonego@gmail.com]

5 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Good suggestions indeed, I use one Macro-Elmarit-R 60 and Macro-Elmar-M 90 since very long on film and digital.

They give very good results, I can't tell when viewing my photos which is which.

Concerning the 1:1 which Lct wrote, this is valid for 24x36,

for APS-C of CL, the field covered is not 1:1.

You may need for each more wider/longer adapter ring or something to get to 1:1

The 1:1 is applicable on full frame or APS-C, it is the magnification of the subject. Has nothing to do with the field size. Of course a 1:1 field on full frame would be 24x36 while on a CL 23.7 x15.7, while at 1:1 the subject size would be the same.

 

[ramarren]

As others have said, the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8 is an excellent macro lens and works brilliantly on the CL. The Macro-Adapter-R is a dedicated extension tube for it that allows it to achieve 1:1 magnification. Due to the APS-C format, 1:1 magnification captures an image field 23.7x15.7 mm in size, and overall the working distance for the usual 1:5 to 1:3 magnification range that most people use for small objects and insects is a bit more similar to the use of a 90mm macro lens on a FF camera as well.

Another excellent solution if you want a longer macro lens is the older Leitz Macro-Elmar-R 100mm f/4 in short mount, in conjunction with the Leitz Focusing Bellows-R. This is a very versatile setup that can be used with a number of R lenses. With the 100mm lens fitted, it nets a focusing range from infinity to 1:1 magnification. I used it with the Summicron-R 50mm lens at near full extension (2.7:1 magnification) to capture Minox 8x11 mm negatives to 21 Mpixel raw images with the Leica SL (turns out the Summicron-R 50 is an excellent performer for flat-field subjects in the 'greater than life size" range). I've also used it with the Elmar-R 180mm f/4 lens to capture very small three dimensional objects with lots of working distance for best perspective. You can sometimes find the Macro-Elmar-R 100mm with the Focusing Bellows-R as a matched, boxed set for ridiculously little money, like I did (I think I paid less than $400 for it); it is professional grade build and finish quality, and a fine performing lens. 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Wow, I've learned a bunch. Thank you for the comprehensive responses!

[lct]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Concerning the 1:1 which Lct wrote, this is valid for 24x36,
for APS-C of CL, the field covered is not 1:1.
You may need for each more wider/longer adapter ring or something to get to 1:1

AFAIK magnification depends only upon two parameters: focus distance and focal length. By example, the R 60/2.8 w/o adapter has a 0.27m MFD so it can go to 0.5x or 1:2 magnification, be it mounted on FF or APS camera. FoV is another story. Calculator here: https://tinyurl.com/y4yecz8x, results below:

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  Edited July 31, 2019 by lct

[ramarren]

Focal length has nothing to do with it except in that it determines how far a given lens needs to be positioned from the imaging plane to achieve the correct imaging condition; distance between the primary nodal point of the lens and the imaging plane is all that matters. 

For context: Magnification in macrophotography is defined to be the relationship in size between the subject being photographed and the size of the image formed by the lens onto the recording medium. This is what a magnification ratio means ... 1:1 magnification means 1 unit measure on the recording medium is imaging 1 unit measure on the subject, 1:2 magnification means that 1 unit measure on the recording medium is imaging 2 unit measures on the subject, etc. 

1:1 magnification occurs when the primary nodal point of the lens is equidistant between the recording medium and the object. How you get that distance set is all a matter of implementation ... focusing helicoid, optical bench, bellows, a close up lens, whatever. Optically, you've shifted the lens' nodal point far enough from the recording medium such that the image forms with critical sharpness at that specific distance. 

The size of the imaged area, once this distance has been achieved, depends upon the size of the recording medium's format. At 1:1 magnification, a camera with a 24x36mm sensor images a 24x35mm subject area; at that same magnification, a camera with a 16x24mm sensor images a 16x24mm subject area. Similarly, a 1:2 magnification means that the subject area is linearly double the size of the recording medium—for FF, 48x72mm and for APS-C, 32x48mm—and so forth. 

So ... the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm lens focusing helicoid allows it to image from infinity distance down to the close focus limit a little closer than 1:2 magnification. Adding the Macro Adapter-R between the lens and the camera allows it to focus in the range from 1:2 magnification down to 1:1 magnification. (It focuses a little further than 1:2 and a little closer than 1:1 as a practical matter of allowing you to use the lens with the Macro Adapter-R for both magnifications rather than having to take the adapter off and on all the time when doing photography in this range.)

I can provide photographs of the camera, macro tube, and lens assembly as well as image results if you want to see them. This is kind of elementary, basic macrophotography stuff...

[PDP]

one more great R-lens: the Macro 2.8/100, some see it as a mile-stone of the R-system. Good used lenses cost around 1000€, so normally more expensive than the 2.8/60. On the other hand (and that was my reason) you get a great 150mm lens with fantastic IQ. Do not forget: the R-adapter is an entry to the entire R-world with great lenses by far cheaper than their M-sisters. 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, ramarren said:

Focal length has nothing to do with it except in that it determines how far a given lens needs to be positioned from the imaging plane to achieve the correct imaging condition; distance between the primary nodal point of the lens and the imaging plane is all that matters. 

I disagree. Focal length is extremely important for perspective in macro photography. For instance, using a focal lenght of100-200 mm in medical photography will keep the relative size of fore and background true to the subject, but when doing model photography, a short focal length will give a "full-size" feel.

[ramarren]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

I disagree. Focal length is extremely important for perspective in macro photography. For instance, using a focal lenght of100-200 mm in medical photography will keep the relative size of fore and background true to the subject, but when doing model photography, a short focal length will give a "full-size" feel.

Why do you disagree?

The point that I was making was that focal length was not the critical criterium for achieving 1:1 magnification. OF COURSE focal length is very important when it comes to obtaining the right perspective for the purpose of the photographic intent.  This is why I have short, normal, and long lens macro setups...! 

[jaapv]

Well, maybe "focal length has nothing to do with it" obscured your meaning.

[lct]

12 hours ago, ramarren said:

Focal length has nothing to do with it [...]

« Magnification is controlled by just two lens properties: the focal length and the focusing distance » https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/macro-lenses.htm
Pretty basic knowledge in my book but i'm no techie at all.

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, lct said:

« Magnification is controlled by just two lens properties: the focal length and the focusing distance » https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/macro-lenses.htm
Pretty basic knowledge in my book but i'm no techie at all.

Same response: The point that I was making was that focal length was not the critical criterium for achieving 1:1 magnification.

You don't pick a magnification by selecting a focal length in macro photography unless you're in the process of deciding which of several different length lenses to use. You pick a magnification by adjusting the distance that the image formed is focused at for whatever focal length your specific lens is.

Your assertion was that the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm could achieve 1:1 on FF but not on APS-C format ... which was quite incorrect. The interplay of focal length and focus distance affects magnification, but more importantly it affects perspective as jaapv pointed out.

The message is that you can achieve 1:1 magnification with any lens on any format, once you construe how to adjust the focus setting appropriately. With short lenses, you might not have any working room, and with some lenses you cannot achieve the correct focus setting because it would be inside the lens assembly but these are secondary considerations. 

Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm lens focused at 1:1 magnification on the Leica CL: 

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Shows just shy of 24mm on the horizontal ... so it's definitely 1:1. I had set it up quickly using the tripod vs pulling out the copystand and focusing rail, please forgive the mis-focus on the ruler. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by ramarren

[lct]

2 hours ago, ramarren said:

[...] Your assertion was that the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm could achieve 1:1 on FF but not on APS-C format ... which was quite incorrect. [...]

I said the opposite exactly... 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ramarren]

On 7/31/2019 at 2:00 PM, a.noctilux said:

Good suggestions indeed, I use one Macro-Elmarit-R 60 and Macro-Elmar-M 90 since very long on film and digital.

They give very good results, I can't tell when viewing my photos which is which.

Concerning the 1:1 which Lct wrote, this is valid for 24x36,

for APS-C of CL, the field covered is not 1:1.

You may need for each more wider/longer adapter ring or something to get to 1:1

Okay, it was a.noctilux who said that. But your assertion was still incorrect.

To summarize: The Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8 lens used without the Macro Adapter-R has a focusing range that covers from infinity down to a magnification of 1:2 on any camera. Fitted with the Macro Adapter-R behind it, it focuses in the range from 1:2 to 1:1 magnification, again on any camera. Focal length has nothing to do with this—it is invariant assuming you are speaking exclusively about this lens. Distance is only relevant because a set magnification will require a specific focus distance, and the converse is also true: a set distance will produce a specific magnification. 

I don't know why you said "magnification depends only upon two parameters: focus distance and focal length" ... It was not relevant to the error posed in a.noctilux' comment, and it is a statement that doesn't mean much at all if you're talking about a specific lens with a fixed focal length. 'Magnification with a given lens is wholly dependent upon focus distance" is a true statement, but is again not relevant to the issue. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by ramarren