Any IIId owner?

[jerzy]

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Hello,
in my work on variations in IIId population I collected details about 47 genuine IIId.
short info about IIId - was produced between 1939 and 1947, only 427 cameras have been produced. IIId is practically wartime IIIc with added self timer, self timer is however different than on later IIIf.

I found strong indications that ALL IIId were (pre)-assembled until mid 1941, also those from 1945/47.
In order to be able to be more precise about production/assembly time I am looking for your help. If you own a IIId pls come back to me with following information:

-SN, type of collar around release, stripe and dot close to rewind  lever, stop on slow speed dial, type of "N" engraving on SN on top cover. Additional, after removing bottom cover and film spool what kind of latch on wind axis (latch of new type shall be easily visible, if you cannot see it means your camera has old one) and if the camera has red curtains. 
Details which i am interested with are pictured below.

In order to preserve privacy you may replay to me either via PM or directly on jerzy.w@gmx.net.
and if desired I will share with you final results of my findigs.

Thank you in advance Jerzy

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Edited July 31, 2019 by jerzy
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[Pecole]

Hi, jerzy.

I stopped collecting more than 20 years ago, but i still have my archives. I was lucky to own two Leica IIId, Nº 360069 and Nº 367308. here are the notes I found on both :

- 360069 (Nº) : Leica IIId (LOOTP). Black blind and no slow speed dial lock like in early models: Six concentric stepped rings on tip of self-timer lever. In Leica Collector's Guide 2d edition, Dennis Laney says  Nº 360001-360125 are Leica IIIa of 1940-42, but cotradicts himself in also saying that Leica IIId are serialled 360001-360125 and 367001-367325.

- 367308 (Nº) : Leica IIId with red blind. Following Van Hasbroeck, Leica IIId Nº 367305-367324 were delivered to the Nippon naval attaché in Berlin in 1944.

Next to these concise notes, I found another one : 422 Leica IIId are listed by Leitz, all within the serials 360xxx and 367xxx. One is listed in 1939, 1 in 1947, all the others between 1940 and 1945.

As for images, I unfortunately only found those of the Nº 360069, and I join a selection. I know this is very partial, but I hope it can be of some use for your interesting research. Needless to say that I will communicate any other element I eventually find in my archives.

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[jerzy]

Hi Pierre,

thank you very much!
here is the list of year and SN after Hahne (Band 1), confirms your information. Hahne list was built upon delivery records from Leitz, and as mentioned there are strong indication that all of them were pre-assembled earlier.

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I have your 360069 in my database already, it was sold at Photographica Auction Rahn in 2018. By chance I have as well a copy of Leitz delivery records for this canera - it was shipped on 23.03.1942 upon the order Bln 29592. Leitz delivery record says this camera was LAQOO, means shipped with Summar. This camera has collar of old type, while in regular IIIc production the new collar was introduced around March 1941. This is one exmaple while I believe that IIId were pre-assembled, I have more examples as this, as well for later cameras. As a matter of fact I found only 2 cameras with collar of new type - one (outside of "regular" IIId SN) which was gift to Ludwig Leitz in Oct 1941 (documented) and one, where I suppose that the collar, and a part of film transport sprocket wheel must have been replaced.
I do not have your 367308 in my database, so if you by chance find some photos would be great. This one is from 1944, I found another 3 from the same batch, all of them with red blinds

thank you!

 

[willeica]

Great work as usual, Jerzy. I don't have a IIId myself, but I will circulate this to any of my contacts who might have one or have records of one or more examples. I will suggest that they might contact you directly.

William

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

It might also be interesting to find out if there are any IIId cameras with a rewind lever that is NOT on a step. Rewind levers on a step are the type of rewind levers that were on the early version of the IIIc cameras.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited July 31, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[jerzy]

Hello Michael,

I have not seen any. All wartime IIIc, IIIc Type 1, have the step. These are cameras until 397607. Very seldom you may find Type 1 without step and this is result of repair/conversion. Die cast of Type 1 and Type 2 (post-war, from 400001) differs significantly, it is not possible to mount Type 2 top cover on Type 1 die cast without significant effort in modifying it (drilling, milling, etc).

Saying that I have one IIIc Type 1 (373xxx) which received flash sync mid fifties together with the top cover without the step. But looking inside it is practically new camera with postwar die cast, postwar  shutter, etc. Pointing out all differencies between Type 1 and 2 is an interesting subject for yet another article, maybe sometime in future :-)

You may find many IIIc Type 1 with added flash sync. But almost exclusively it is done by screwing on a small plate with dial under the fast speed dial, preservong original top cover and other components, while for Type 2 it is more often that the whole top cover has been renewed. And it is as well mentioned by Leitz in their Conversions booklet from 1955 -  for a small additional money, while adding flash sync to a IIIc type 2 (SN above 400000 is explicitely mentioned) the top cover could have been renewed. For Type 1 Leitz did not offer renewing the top cover, however I believe that it was possible on custom quotation.

[alan mcfall]

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I have a database of 75 IIId's with some features noted such as the rewind lever mark, and if they had been flashed synced, baseplate latch type. I will send it via PM to you.  My IIId is number 367105, shipped May 2, 1944 to Bucharest. The shutter release, slow speed lock and the red curtain were changed on the IIId's about the same time as they were on the IIIc's. 

[alan mcfall]

There is a "Stepper" blog on the internet which includes a detailed assesment and rational for the addition of the stop mark on the step of 3c and 3d. Seems too many early stepper users were pushing the A-R lever too far and causing problems.

[jerzy]

vor 54 Minuten schrieb alan mcfall:

I have a database of 75 IIId's with some features noted such as the rewind lever mark, and if they had been flashed synced, baseplate latch type. I will send it via PM to you.  My IIId is number 367105, shipped May 2, 1944 to Bucharest. The shutter release, slow speed lock and the red curtain were changed on the IIId's about the same time as they were on the IIIc's. 

I do not have yet 367105 (have 367106) in my database. I believe as well that features of IIIc were implemented simultanously into IIId. However the IIIds went to stock. and were shipped out sometimes years later. This is the only explanation why IIId shipped in 1944 have features which in IIIc disappeared in 1941. IIIc population is much bigger, I assume that the time between production/assembly and shipment was generally short. Thus analyzing when particular feature appeared in IIIc will me give  indication when particular IIId was produced or  pre-assembled and to which extent.
One important feature is the latch on wind axis, the problem is that on the photos in web you cannot see it, you need to have the camera in your hands.

[mazdaro]

Hi Jerzy,

Marek showed No 360069 on LUV, Kaviar #3347.

 

Best regards

Roland

Edited July 31, 2019 by mazdaro

[jerzy]

Hi Roland,

thank you for reminder. Marek's IIId is the same which Pecole is showing above.

I found in Forum pics of Pecole and Alan IIId. Pierre, are you sure it was 367308? It looks rather as 367303, your photo attached

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[jerzy]

type of the  latch on wind axis is an important factor to determine the time of assembly. Therefore my kind question to the owners of IIId to have a look and let me know. This is what you will see after removing bottom cover and film spool. Right picture shows latch of older type, left picture the newer. In regular IIIc newer latch has been implemented around mid 1940. Collar around release was changed around mid 1941 so these 2 details would allow for pretty precise dating.

 

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[willeica]

Some thought provoking material just received from Jim Lager. He is happy for me to post this online.

"I have been chasing Leica data since the late 1960's and remember it was really 

difficult to locate a genuine IIId. The camera was mythical. It is now over 50 years later and we know

 much more. The Leitz Wetzlar October 1940 brochure 7920 lists four codewords for the IIId.

 LOOTP body only, LAQOO with Summitar, LOOUC with Elmar, and LOOWD with Xenon. The

 handwritten delivery records that I have been privileged to inspect ( at Wetzlar ) contain 

 very interesting data: For example, 367243 and 367248 delivered 9.4.45 Besatzung ( Allied Occupation).

This before the capitulation. 360002 5.4.40 to Konstruktion, 360009 5.4.40 to Leica Schule,

 360021 28.11.40 to Ludwig Leitz, 360124 9.9.44 to Perrot, Biel, and 367134 28.3.44 to Stockholm. 

There is a suggestion from September- October 1941 that an unusual variant was being considered.

  Written LOOUC L and LAQOO L equipped with a folding rewind crank. Very progressive idea that did

 not publicly arrive until 1967 with the M4."

 

William

 

 

[Pecole]

Jerzy, I verified my archives : my second IIId was well serialled 367308. You say you reproduce "my" photo : I do not recognize same, and the only one I found to date shows the red blind, but unfortunately not the serial. It is here, especially since you asked for. Mopre to come, if I find...

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[Pecole]

Morning again, jerzy.

Your thread released new ideas for investgating my so numerous archives, and I finally found a new series of images of my second Leica IIId where, among others, the serial 367308 is clearly visible. Here are the photos.

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[jerzy]

Pierre, thank you for clarification, obviously I made a mistake, it is a different camera with different lens. So I have yet another IIId for my database.

William, thank you for the note from Jim Lager, very interesting!

[M9reno]

Hi Jerzy,

Finally got around to posting mine here earlier today:

 

SN 360048

type of collar around release: OLD

stripe and dot close to rewind  lever:  NO

stop on slow speed dial:  NO

type of "N" engraving on SN on top cover:  OLD

latch on wind axis:  OLD

red curtains: NO
 

If you have collated data that you can share, I would be very interested to see them, and please feel free to PM me.

AL

[jerzy]

thank you! what is engraved on speed dial Z or B? Would expect Z. I will need few days to include recent cameras, will contact you then. 

[M9reno]

Here it is.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pedaes]

If this thread has wetted anyone's appetite, Ivor has 350050 for sale at £6.5k. Looks in nice condition.I would buy it, Alfonso, and you can then search for No. 49 😀