Just a little lament: whither Sl2?

[saptarshi]

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Hello,

Just a lament, in the only forum I know that might listen. I was using the 75 , 90 APO on the M10 with and without the Visoflex.

Almost all of my 75's shots were slightly out of focus (this surprised me as it hadn't happened before, maybe my eyes getting worse?)

and Leica support  told me  the only sure way to be sharp at that focal length is to use the EVF ... which made me sad, since I don't like using the visoflex on the m10.

I;ve been thinking about the SL2 (sold the SL because it was too bulky for me and hoping the next one is svelter)  and longing for the auto-focus for 75mm+ focal lengths.

Oh, when <I>will</I> the SL2 be released?

 

 

 

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[capitalist]

I am waiting too...

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[ajmarton1]

I sold my SL too but gave up on that system completely.  I sold all the SL lenses I had.  Got the Nikon D850 and never looked back. Still have the M10P and Mono 246.  Also, sold the Q in anticipation of the Q2 but decided to wait.  

FYI - I don't think the SL2 is going to be a smaller package.  I also do not like the performance of the SL lenses.  They are slow and search to focus in challenging light.  In fact, I returned the 50mm 1.4 immediately after a trip and complained about it while on the trip.  Leica took it back at no loss to me.  But that was when the lens first came out.  Maybe it's better now.  But I think the sweet spot for Leica are the Ms and the Q2 - not the SL (I don't know anything about the other varieties).  Just my 2 cents.  

[AZN]

"Just be patient". "What's the hurry?".  "It will be worth the wait…"  "They are a very small micro-company and you just have tug your forelocks etc."

Yeah, well.

I got burned when Leica announed the wondrous splendiferous ermygawditssoamazingImgoingtofaint 35 SL lens and then promptly forgot to make any.  So months later I cancelled my order and learned my lesson.

Luckily R lenses and longer M lenses work fine on other systems.  Am waiting for the Sony A7RIV to arrive in stores and will have a look - in about 2 months in our frame, or 1 ns in Leica's

 

[Bob Andersson]

11 hours ago, saptarshi said:

Oh, when <I>will</I> the SL2 be released?

I suspect the clue is in the end of the current trade-in scheme, September 30th. That date doesn't, of course, preclude an announcement next month but there's no incentive for Leica to effectively discount the SL unless they are clearing the shelves for an SL2. Similarly, there's no point in them announcing an SL2 until most of the existing new SL bodies have been sold, particularly so if the new SL2 is cheaper than the SL. Can't happen? Well, I don't think many of us predicted that the Hasselblad X1D II (still waiting for mine 🤩) would be cheaper than its predecessor but market pressure from Fujifilm had its effect and maybe, just maybe, Panasonic will have had a similar influence on the SL2. For those looking forward to that camera I certainly hope so. 🙂

[CharlesL]

The CL has the Ms' form factor more or less but is APS-C.
The SL has the Ms' full frame but is a different animal in size and weight.
Sooner or later, Leica will find that the rangefinder focus method has reached the end of the road -- no more new models. Then it could produce an M form factor, full-frame camera with EVF to use M-mount lenses from 15mm to 135 mm. Unlike M cameras, M lenses can expect devotion for a long time to come.

[saptarshi]

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The cl was great but that a 50 summicron ceases to be a 50 on the cl irked me. And there were several fiddly things in the ui (physical and electronic) that irked. The sl got it right.

i find rangefinder focusing up to 50mm faster than with evf and peaking.  Beyond that I’d prefer autofocus.

My comment about size was based on something I heard about the sl being “designed as if cut with a battle axe”

i guess I’ll just wait. 

 

Thanks for the comments

[hillavoider]

Now the Sony is announced Leica need to announce the SL2 approximately 2 weeks before the A7 hits the shelves just to throw  some doubt into Sony’s sales 

Edited July 28, 2019 by hillavoider

[sebben]

I doubt Sony buyers are in the same target group as the leica SL2

[johnbuckley]

Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread. Some responses:

• The day that Leica gives up on the M System is the day that Leica gives up. There will always be a rangefinder system -- it is the counterweight to the dynamism in the rest of the market. It's possible that, over time, other systems bring in more money to Leica than the M system. But if you think Leica is going to "find that the rangefinder focus method has reached the end of the road", then you don't really understand Leica. Or for that matter, those of us who love our SLs (or S, CL and Qs) but think of the M as our default camera.
• I do expect a different form factor for the SL2 -- Dr. K has said as much -- but don't expect it to be lighter, or cheaper, than the current one.
• I am as frustrated as anyone here with the absence of an announced SL2, both because the SL is now nearly four years old and because there's an amazing amount of activity in the FF and MF marketplace. But I don't think Leica thinks in terms of timing an announcement to mess with a competitor. I think they do things when they're ready.

 

[saptarshi]

41 minutes ago, johnbuckley said:

Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread. Some responses:

• The day that Leica gives up on the M System is the day that Leica gives up. There will always be a rangefinder system -- it is the counterweight to the dynamism in the rest of the market. It's possible that, over time, other systems bring in more money to Leica than the M system. But if you think Leica is going to "find that the rangefinder focus method has reached the end of the road", then you don't really understand Leica. Or for that matter, those of us who love our SLs (or S, CL and Qs) but think of the M as our default camera.
• I do expect a different form factor for the SL2 -- Dr. K has said as much -- but don't expect it to be lighter, or cheaper, than the current one.
• I am as frustrated as anyone here with the absence of an announced SL2, both because the SL is now nearly four years old and because there's an amazing amount of activity in the FF and MF marketplace. But I don't think Leica thinks in terms of timing an announcement to mess with a competitor. I think they do things when they're ready.

 

I agree with everything here. The M *is* Leica and Leica is *M* and more. Note , it’s not SL and more...

Also it might be less brutalist in design but it can’t be much smaller or lighter given the size and heft of the lenses it needs to hold. I wouldn’t like to hold the 75 apo without an included grip which most non Sl cameras in the Leica world don’t come with.

agreed, that they will release when they are ready (as they  should) and I shall wait, whine a bit and wait again.

 

 

 

[wizard]

From what I have heard, the SL2 should be available in November this year. Seems to be consistent with the end of the current trade-in scheme and makes sense to me, as Leica could then take advantage of some pre-Xmas sales. 

We'll see, but the wait can't be long now. The trade-in scheme no longer applies to Leica's own shop in Wetzlar, as they are out of stock with SL bodies.

Andy

[CharlesL]

5 hours ago, johnbuckley said:

...if you think Leica is going to "find that the rangefinder focus method has reached the end of the road", then you don't really understand Leica.

 

Perhaps I don't, but you left off the concluding phrase, "no more new models." Yes, Leica should keep a rangefinder M10 in production forever. Perhaps even change the sensor from time to time -- although how many megapixels can one use in a rangefinder? But I stand by the opinion (yes, only opinion) that Leica should move its center of gravity to "an M form factor, full-frame camera with EVF to use M-mount lenses from 15mm to 135 mm."

[Tailwagger]

November ship, IIRC, was mentioned by L-Rumors, but they also mentioned a July announcement. Only two days left for that prediction to be incorrect. Given all the silence of the past couple of months,  maybe everyone is under NDA and the announcement is still imminent, but to me, it feels like something, no clue as to what, is forcing a delay.  I find myself humming an old Kink's tune every day,  'So tired, tired of waitin...'

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

November ship, IIRC, was mentioned by L-Rumors, but they also mentioned a July announcement. Only two days left for that prediction to be incorrect. Given all the silence of the past couple of months,  maybe everyone is under NDA and the announcement is still imminent, but to me, it feels like something, no clue as to what, is forcing a delay.  I find myself humming an old Kink's tune every day,  'So tired, tired of waitin...'

I thought the July predictions were superseded by ‘late in 2019’ expectation, without reference to a July announcement...

https://www.l-rumors.com/l4-leica-sl2-will-be-in-market-in-late-2019-only/

Jeff

[johnbuckley]

19 hours ago, CharlesL said:

Perhaps I don't, but you left off the concluding phrase, "no more new models." Yes, Leica should keep a rangefinder M10 in production forever. Perhaps even change the sensor from time to time -- although how many megapixels can one use in a rangefinder? But I stand by the opinion (yes, only opinion) that Leica should move its center of gravity to "an M form factor, full-frame camera with EVF to use M-mount lenses from 15mm to 135 mm."

I completely accept your point of view, I just disagree that it is now, or likely in the foreseeable future, to be Leica's point of view. And it sure isn't mine. I agree there isn't a whole lot more I want from the M system other than to keep improving the sensor, etc. But if you want a small capable auto-focus camera, Leica offers you the Q2. If you want something that does more, there is the SL system. (I am in this forum page because I'm eager to upgrade my SL to an SL2.)

The M system, with manual focus and a rangefinder, is a thing unto itself, and has quite a few fans -- not all of them my age, if judging by the group that showed up for a recent photo walk sponsored by the Leica Store DC. There are some, like me, who might even say the M System offers The Essentials, or Das Wesentliche. I understand and accept your preference and critique as valid. I'm pretty confident Leica doesn't share it.

Edited July 30, 2019 by johnbuckley

[Tailwagger]

21 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I thought the July predictions were superseded by ‘late in 2019’ expectation, without reference to a July announcement...

https://www.l-rumors.com/l4-leica-sl2-will-be-in-market-in-late-2019-only/

Jeff

Somehow, not sure where or when I got July in my head from something I read.  Per LR back in May, "The new Leica SL2 will not be announced in June but more likely in the 3rd quarter of 2019 – 47MP with similar sensor to the new Leica Q2." 

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/category/leica-sl2/#ixzz5vC9tU2k1

Two more months in Q3, so we'll see. Who knows whats going on? Not I. Regardless, and not that I have the slightest interest in a 61MP FF, but the Pano is already showing its age (kidding... but there is a certain market reality/stupidity in there somewhere), Canon apparently is on the verge of introducing a far more sensible 32MP MK II version of the M6, while Leica is still nowhere to be found.  Having gotten on the local SL2 list the day the Q2 was announced, I supposed I'm just preparing to be launched into orbit or deep depression once things finally do get announced. 

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Somehow, not sure where or when I got July in my head from something I read.  Per LR back in May, "The new Leica SL2 will not be announced in June but more likely in the 3rd quarter of 2019 – 47MP with similar sensor to the new Leica Q2." 

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/category/leica-sl2/#ixzz5vC9tU2k1

Two more months in Q3, so we'll see. Who knows whats going on? Not I. Regardless, and not that I have the slightest interest in a 61MP FF, but the Pano is already showing its age (kidding... but there is a certain market reality/stupidity in there somewhere), Canon apparently is on the verge of introducing a far more sensible 32MP MK II version of the M6, while Leica is still nowhere to be found.  Having gotten on the local SL2 list the day the Q2 was announced, I supposed I'm just preparing to be launched into orbit or deep depression once things finally do get announced. 

Leica Rumors has been consistently wrong so far on the SL2 timing, first offering assurance that it would be released before the Panasonic Lumix at the end of last year or beginning of this year. Later they moved that to Jone or  July.  But L-Rumors (a competitive site) has always leaned toward a much later launch, now towards year end, and Leica Rumors seems to belatedly share the view.  We of course can’t know for sure, but seems the later-than-sooner camp is winning.

Jeff

Edited July 30, 2019 by Jeff S

[saptarshi]

7 hours ago, johnbuckley said:

I completely accept your point of view, I just disagree that it is now, or likely in the foreseeable future, to be Leica's point of view. And it sure isn't mine. I agree there isn't a whole lot more I want from the M system other than to keep improving the sensor, etc. But if you want a small capable auto-focus camera, Leica offers you the Q2. If you want something that does more, there is the SL system. (I am in this forum page because I'm eager to upgrade my SL to an SL2.)

The M system, with manual focus and a rangefinder, is a thing unto itself, and has quite a few fans -- not all of them my age, if judging by the group that showed up for a recent photo walk sponsored by the Leica Store DC. There are some, like me, who might even say the M System offers The Essentials, or Das Wesentliche. I understand and accept your preference and critique as valid. I'm pretty confident Leica doesn't share it.

Do you recall how many were using 75+ focal lengths with their m?

i coming to think the m is best used with 50 and lower (and very fast to focus with too) but for 75+ it can become a bit tedious 

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[johnbuckley]

I think everyone was 50 or lower, and most were 35s and 28s.