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CL - Keep or sell


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4 hours ago, prismstorm said:

...

It is a lot more compact and light weight, but I can't help but feel that the SL has better ergonomics overall, and I can change settings way faster without getting cramps in my palm from fiddling with the constricted space and controls on the CL ... 

Why do you change settings so often? The most often thing I change on a shot to shot basis is how much EV compensation I dial in. That goes for the CL as much as for the SL, and every other camera with Aperture Priority autoexposure I own ... It's no more difficult on the CL than on the SL. 

The SL does give a lot more space for your hands/fingers, for sure. If you're doing long sessions of shooting, it's more comfortable to hold. But it's been a while since I did anything like that, and even when I did I'd use a tripod or camera stand a good bit of the time anyway.

Add a Jason Cui half case to the CL: It gets 3/8" taller and a little thicker, making it much more comfortable to hold for long periods of time, and you can get the battery and card out easily. :) 

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1 hour ago, erudolph said:

Doesn't the new CL firmware allow for assigning focus to a back button?

Not exactly. It does allow you to assign AF-L to the FN button or right wheel button, which then allows you to separate the action of locking a focus point separately from locking exposure when using AF and AE. 

So, essentially, you have the option to tell it to stop focusing with a 'back button' ... 

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10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Very small Summilux-M 35 or ok size Summilux-TL 35 make more sense than quite largeAPO-Summicron-SL 35. 

They are lighter and smaller with larger aperture benefits

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Yes the Summilux TL 35 is of course lighter, but being the owner of both SL and CL systems, the SL 35 allows me to use the lens across both bodies without compromise, and given that the SL 35 is full frame f/2 and the TL 35 is APS-C f/1.4, the light gathering ability seems to be on par. 

10 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

I consider a second camera body to be a desirable level of redundancy. Redundancy is the most-timely form of insurance against drops/spills/theft/absent-mindedness/etc. On two occasions, I was glad to have a second camera available. The first time, I had accidentally pushed a button, on the side of a 7D, which engaged a feature I had never previously used, during a night shoot, while processing a crime scene. I continued the shoot with the remaining 7D. (I used two cameras, normally, one with my macro lens, and the other with a zoom.) I realized/discovered my operator error later, when in a well-lit area.

The second time, I dropped my then-new M10 at the outset of a road trip, and was glad to have a Nikon DSLR with me, even if the only F-mount lens I had was a 40mm Voigtlander. The padded camera wrap had protected the exterior, but the impact had interrupted a circuit, or something to that effect. (The most obvious symptom was a “green screen.”) An extended stay at Leica North America was necessary, during which the rangefinder was also adjusted.

I do, however, understand how a small camera can be beyond a point of diminishing returns, being too “fiddly.”

Because I wonder when a potential SL2 comes out, whether keeping my existing SL1 as a second camera body will be far more practical than keeping a CL, since the APS-C body is only useful to give more reach at the long end (like when paired with 90-280), but negates my shorter SL lenses (the ultra wide SL 16-35 becomes a 24-52.5mm which is not of much use when I'm on a lifetime trip like photographing Iceland). 

9 hours ago, helged said:

Opposite experience on my side. I prefer the SL; it fits my hand and it has back-focus button. The SL also handles highlights better than CL. And the EVF is larger/easier to view. Based on my experience with both systems.

And yes, I would have kept the CL if it had back focus button.

Problem is there isn't really real estate on the back of the CL for a joystick or back button focus button of any sorts, so it will forever remain a SL feature. 

7 hours ago, ramarren said:

Why do you change settings so often? The most often thing I change on a shot to shot basis is how much EV compensation I dial in. That goes for the CL as much as for the SL, and every other camera with Aperture Priority autoexposure I own ... It's no more difficult on the CL than on the SL. 

The SL does give a lot more space for your hands/fingers, for sure. If you're doing long sessions of shooting, it's more comfortable to hold. But it's been a while since I did anything like that, and even when I did I'd use a tripod or camera stand a good bit of the time anyway.

Add a Jason Cui half case to the CL: It gets 3/8" taller and a little thicker, making it much more comfortable to hold for long periods of time, and you can get the battery and card out easily. :) 

I need easy access to both aperture and EV compensation, and after outfitting my CL with the official Leica thumb support, it blocks a easy pathway for my thumb to reach the left thumb wheel which I have set to change EV compensation. 

7 hours ago, ramarren said:

Not exactly. It does allow you to assign AF-L to the FN button or right wheel button, which then allows you to separate the action of locking a focus point separately from locking exposure when using AF and AE. 

So, essentially, you have the option to tell it to stop focusing with a 'back button' ... 

I struggle to understand what the difference is between back button focusing and AF+L which can be assigned to the CL 'Fn' button now? It also has options for AE-L and AF-L + AE-L. 

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Regarding the thumbwheel/thumb support thing, There are a couple of simple solutions:

a:  remove the thumb grip (it doesn't work very effectively anyway, blocks the hot shoe and may damage the hot shoe long run -and it blocks access to the left wheel) The handgrip is far more useful, even if it has to be removed to change battery/card.

b: switch the exposure compensation to te right thumb wheel.

 

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2 hours ago, prismstorm said:

Problem is there isn't really real estate on the back of the CL for a joystick or back button focus button of any sorts, so it will forever remain a SL feature. 

Slight redesign of the back 'joystick' would solve the problem, enabeling the center button for focus. 

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10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

It will be equivalent to quite weird 60mm. But why not. 

Not that weird, Leica has made a 60 mm lens before.  Focal length numbers are not very relevant when looking through an EVF ;)

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I would not get the TL-35 if I owned an SL with the SL-35 lens.  Even though the TL-35 is a magnificent lens, the SL-35 also amazing and can be used on the CL.  Better to get the TL-23 and/or TL-18 for the size benefits, while not compromising quality.

Thinking in the longer term, your next SL is going to have a much larger pixel count, meaning the APS-C crop will still yield excellent files with plenty of working room.

I have always had a smaller, walkaround system alongside my main rig.  For many years one or another of the Ricoh GR series.  Now with the CL I can get similar compactness without the need to keep two systems on the go.  I do a lot of business travel.  Having a camera with me for the moments of opportunity is great fun, but it would be overkill to take a full kit.

Of course your needs may be different.  Or you may not be happy to spend money on both CL and SL based systems going forward.  Just hope it helps to share my perspective.

 

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7 hours ago, prismstorm said:

...

I struggle to understand what the difference is between back button focusing and AF+L which can be assigned to the CL 'Fn' button now? It also has options for AE-L and AF-L + AE-L. 

"Back button focus" means the camera is in manual focus mode but you engage AF by pressing a button when you want/need it. AF-L means the camera is in AF mode and you can stop the focusing by pressing a button, and then the camera is in manual focus mode. Fundamentally opposite approaches to focus control methodology. 

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Not that weird, Leica has made a 60 mm lens before.  Focal length numbers are not very relevant when looking through an EVF ;)

I have no idea why 60mm would seem a "weird" focal length. The same field of view was/is a much loved standard amongst Nikon and Minolta users for many years (Noct-Nikkor 58mm, Minolta and Canon 55mm etc). To the point that Voigtländer has seen fit to introduce a beautiful lens in Nikon F mount, the Nokton 58mm f/1.4 SL II lens. 

The Pentax-L 43mm f/1.9 Special is just about my favorite all around lens on the CL. 

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On 7/26/2019 at 8:08 AM, prismstorm said:

Being a SL user primarily, I added the CL to pair with the SL 90-280 to entertain a few days of African Safari in May, but found myself not having touched the CL for two months straight thereafter.

I am considering selling off the CL now given that it is sitting idly redundant, and I haven't yet invested in any TL lens thus will be able to make a 'clean exit'. However, my CL is practically like new and the notion of keeping it and adding a few TL lenses down the line to make it a backup / supplementary camera to my SL does sound enticing. Moreover, I can always use my SL lenses on the CL to gain new focal lengths after the x1.5 conversion. For instance, I plan to acquire the SL 90/2 and 35/2 in time, and simply keeping the CL will give me 52.5mm and 135mm primes to use.

Would welcome any insights!  

Apart from shooting on safari, you give no clues as to the end product of your photographic endeavours. To some extent photographic assignments,  no matter whether paid for or not, should influence your choice of systems. Personal social photography can be treated separately. So there is no shame in having smaller less intrusive equipment for the latter. That is where your CL could fit in without competing with your favoured solution. CL plus standard zoom or 23mm Summicron would easily meet those needs.

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13 hours ago, jaapv said:

Regarding the thumbwheel/thumb support thing, There are a couple of simple solutions:

a:  remove the thumb grip (it doesn't work very effectively anyway, blocks the hot shoe and may damage the hot shoe long run -and it blocks access to the left wheel) The handgrip is far more useful, even if it has to be removed to change battery/card.

Leica Thumb rest works fine. CL ergonomics are profoundly improved with it. You cannot use the CL without it after buying it. It is that good. But it does change how you used to use the CL before

  • Left wheel is not blocked at all. Just use the tip of your thumb to use it. Not a problem. 
  • Right wheel is not blocked either. Just use your index to use it. It is that easy. 
  • It will not damage the hot shoe. CL hot shoe is very strong.

Leica thumb rest combined with Leica handgrip are a joy to use. They make one hand operation easier. And heavier lens such as Summilux-TL 35 will feel lighter with them. 

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I dislike Thumbs-ups in general. They block the hot shoe and throw too much strain on it. I have a Thumbie, which is the better solution and makes it easier to operate the wheels. 

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10 minutes ago, nicci78 said:
  • Left wheel is not blocked at all. Just use the tip of your thumb to use it. Not a problem. 
  • Right wheel is not blocked either. Just use your index to use it. It is that easy. 

Or...
• Just use your index finger to turn the left wheel, this way the Thumb rest won't be disturbing anymore.
• Just use your thumb to turn the right wheel. It is that easy. ;)

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21 hours ago, jaapv said:

Regarding the thumbwheel/thumb support thing, There are a couple of simple solutions:

a:  remove the thumb grip (it doesn't work very effectively anyway, blocks the hot shoe and may damage the hot shoe long run -and it blocks access to the left wheel) The handgrip is far more useful, even if it has to be removed to change battery/card.

b: switch the exposure compensation to te right thumb wheel.

 

For solution b, it would just mean changing the aperture is now just as difficult as changing the EV before 😅the left wheel will always be hard to access XD

Anyway, I bought the official thumb support because it improved the ergonomics of the CL for me, and gave my thumb a much needed place to rest so I don't get cramps 😥

18 hours ago, rob_w said:

I would not get the TL-35 if I owned an SL with the SL-35 lens.  Even though the TL-35 is a magnificent lens, the SL-35 also amazing and can be used on the CL.  Better to get the TL-23 and/or TL-18 for the size benefits, while not compromising quality.

Thinking in the longer term, your next SL is going to have a much larger pixel count, meaning the APS-C crop will still yield excellent files with plenty of working room.

I have always had a smaller, walkaround system alongside my main rig.  For many years one or another of the Ricoh GR series.  Now with the CL I can get similar compactness without the need to keep two systems on the go.  I do a lot of business travel.  Having a camera with me for the moments of opportunity is great fun, but it would be overkill to take a full kit.

Of course your needs may be different.  Or you may not be happy to spend money on both CL and SL based systems going forward.  Just hope it helps to share my perspective.

 

My thinking is that I can get the APO-Summicron-SL 35mm, and then I will have a 35mm on my SL and an equivalent of the TL-35 on my CL with one single lens, is that your line of thinking too? For owners of both the SL and CL, the SL 35/2 kind of replaces the TL 35/1.4, unless you really like a silver lens, and the few extra grams and dimensions really bother you.

What lens do you have with your CL? I plan for the CL to be a fun little travel camera when photography is not the priority. 

16 hours ago, ramarren said:

"Back button focus" means the camera is in manual focus mode but you engage AF by pressing a button when you want/need it. AF-L means the camera is in AF mode and you can stop the focusing by pressing a button, and then the camera is in manual focus mode. Fundamentally opposite approaches to focus control methodology. 

Going by this logic, the SL also doesn't have 'back button focus', since all I'm doing now is setting the 'push in SL joystick' action to AF-L and AE-L, so in essence it is still different than the 'AF-On' button like the dedicated one on a D850. 

16 hours ago, wda said:

Apart from shooting on safari, you give no clues as to the end product of your photographic endeavours. To some extent photographic assignments,  no matter whether paid for or not, should influence your choice of systems. Personal social photography can be treated separately. So there is no shame in having smaller less intrusive equipment for the latter. That is where your CL could fit in without competing with your favoured solution. CL plus standard zoom or 23mm Summicron would easily meet those needs.

I have a M10 M246 for quick street and documentary work, and I use the SL primarily for engagement shoots, dedicated outdoor / studio portraits, and landscapes. I am thinking whether to keep the CL so I would have something tiny and compact for casual travels that does not have photography as a priority.

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I would say it comes down to some questions:

1) do you like using the CL? Is the viewfinder fine for you? Is the handling good for you? Is the IQ fine for you?

2) do you have times when you want a smaller camera than the SL?

If the answer is yes I would think it can make sense to maybe add 1 or 2 CL lenses, depending on your focal lengths need, and then you have a nice second smaller system, which also can work as a backup, and as a "teleconverter" for the SL.

Maybe a 23 TL, or the 55-135 as a compact telezoom, or the 18-56 (which I find a little boring). My Fav is the 11-23, and for compact the 23.

Even thought the 35/1.4 is smaller and "cheaper" the the 35 SL - if you own the SL and CL I would go for the 35 SL lens because you can use it on both cameras. I have the 75 SL and it handles good on the CL size wise.

If you only have few times wanting a more compact camera, or if you take the SL most of the times because you want the bigger EVF and more dynamic range,  I would sell the CL.

Personally I keep it, I find it great that the lenses between M/CL/SL/Pana can be used on all those cams. By the way the 23 TL is also a nice lens on the SL or Pana S1r, for evening shots of casual things (party/dinner/...) (where you dont need much resolution usually anyways).

 

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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

in this case @lct you do not need the Thumb rest at all. Because you thumb will not rest on it anymore.... 😅

My thumb is stuck on it as long as i don't have to turn the right wheel. Works the same as on my M8.2 and M240 more or less.  

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I agree that a better grip on the camera is nice - especially with heavy lenses or long shutter times - I just think that the Thumbs-Up and the Leica product are not very well thought through. They sit too high, impeding the wheel operation (Prismstorm is right in that aspect) and despite the hot shoe being alleged to be strong enough, it is held by four miniscule screws from the bottom. There have been reports of loose hot shoes  on M8,9 and 240 by the Thumbs-Up in this Forum, there are problems with the M10 shoe being a loose fit for this reason, and I managed to tear one off an M9 by sitting on it with the flash attached.

I like the Thumbie far better. One can position it vertically according to one's grip, the hot shoe remains free for flashes and it cannot damage the camera at all. In general, though, I find the handgrip much more effective, even if it is a poor design covering the bottom door.

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