alan mcfall Posted September 8, 2019 Share #21 Posted September 8, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have never seen anything suggesting that the 135 Hedtor was designed to cover a larger than 35mm format. In fact, Dr. Leitz is quoted as saying that Berek designed the 135 Hektor for maximum improvement over the previous elmar and specifically for the leica. The Hektor was a much better lens, and said to be better color corrected. It lasted for many years. But the following late 135 f4 Elmar (1960) was even significantly better. Puts, Compendium, shows the Hektor at f11 to be no beter than the late elmar wide open. I found two more 3 digit Elmar early lens. 760--uncoupled, no internal number, but 1990 hand scratched on lens head flange, black rear mount, an original 383--first RF coupled, then later modified for 42mm screw mount cameras, internal serial scratched 590693 which is a IIIf RD so the modifications were likely after 1954. I have seen two 3 digit 135 Elmars with two different compatability numbers engraved . It is possible that an original lens was separated from its matched non-standard camera and the owner had it matched to another camera by shimming the camera flange to match the lens. Reportedly, from May 9, 1931, all lenes and cameras were standardized, but leitz was still not using conventional lens serial numbers. So, until late 1931 or early 1932,some lenses did not have any serial numbers, 3 or 5 digit. 3 digit lenses returned for standardization did not have the 3 digit serial removed, but a small "o" was added to the arrow at the base. The standardized model C cameras also had the "o" on the body flange. I have not seen an example of a 3 digit lens with "o". amd beleive this upgrade to be rare. Perhaps leitz was not frequently upgrading lenses until 1932 when the rangefinder would have driven a bigger demand. Here are my elmars without any serials and the arrow with the "o". They were clearly made for the standardized C camera. They do not have any internal camera serial scratched as would be correct and they have the black paint rear flange. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Other unnumbered 135 Elmars I have are rangefinder coupled and also do not have the "o". This could be that they were upgraded after Feb 1932 and the lower section shell was changed to accomodate the six rangefinder transfer bar screws and the "o" was lost. Or, as noted by Jerzy above, they could have been made after Feb 1932 as original RF coupled lenses but before leitz started conventional serial numbers at serial 142001 for this lens. Those with chrome rings were likely upgrades and not originals, as serial numbers appeared before chrome. As there are so many combinations possible with these 135 Elmar lenses: -3 digit serials are not sequential, but just to indicate a given camera, thus they have no time relevance -serial, 3 digit, 5 digit some inside some outside, uncertainty when started or stopped -nickle, chrome rings, black paint or even knurled rear flange -RFcoupling or not (after Feb 1932) -conversions or updating at various times using available spares -use of the "o" for standardization but evidently dropping it for rangefinder coupled lenses, converted or original -i have seen "Germany" occasionally engraved at the rear edge, no doubt for export reasons It is often more realistic to take a given single lens and then trace its history as best possible, based on features. The dynamic environment at Leitz in the early 1930's almost gaurentees nothing is 100%. More examples from members, or renewed exam of the factory records will help. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Other unnumbered 135 Elmars I have are rangefinder coupled and also do not have the "o". This could be that they were upgraded after Feb 1932 and the lower section shell was changed to accomodate the six rangefinder transfer bar screws and the "o" was lost. Or, as noted by Jerzy above, they could have been made after Feb 1932 as original RF coupled lenses but before leitz started conventional serial numbers at serial 142001 for this lens. Those with chrome rings were likely upgrades and not originals, as serial numbers appeared before chrome. As there are so many combinations possible with these 135 Elmar lenses: -3 digit serials are not sequential, but just to indicate a given camera, thus they have no time relevance -serial, 3 digit, 5 digit some inside some outside, uncertainty when started or stopped -nickle, chrome rings, black paint or even knurled rear flange -RFcoupling or not (after Feb 1932) -conversions or updating at various times using available spares -use of the "o" for standardization but evidently dropping it for rangefinder coupled lenses, converted or original -i have seen "Germany" occasionally engraved at the rear edge, no doubt for export reasons It is often more realistic to take a given single lens and then trace its history as best possible, based on features. The dynamic environment at Leitz in the early 1930's almost gaurentees nothing is 100%. More examples from members, or renewed exam of the factory records will help. 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Advertisement Posted September 8, 2019 Posted September 8, 2019 Hi alan mcfall, Take a look here Help in dating an old Elmar 13,5 cm. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2019 Share #22 Posted September 8, 2019 Me too have an unnumbered item - coupled, without "o" and with chrome rings (flange and scale) that look very fine, compared to the black parts, which confirms your hipotesis of a later upgrade. As i say it's an unnumbered item… but really full of scratched writings inside : onto the focusing tube "A 137" is twice engraved, and also engraved on the bottom side of the lenshead … by logic, can be the real focal length : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299613-help-in-dating-an-old-elmar-135-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3815640'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2019 Share #23 Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) … and on the same position on the lenshead two other writings do appear, hard to decipher, positioned regularly along the diameter… one can be a 4 digits serial number… the other is long, with symbols too (even a "L" in "Leica" style…) : Alan, do you think that those numbers can be related to RF coupling ? It's a speculation that has came to my mind, but haven't idea if it has some logic ? (don't take care of their color… I played in PS to make them more readable) Another speculation… would be interesting to see how was made the Elmar 13,5 for LF plate cameras… maybe the basic lenshead was the same and Barnack, as Alan suggests, simply "adapted" them, adding some parts, to an adhoc designed focus Mount for Leica… I even wonder if some of the writings can be related to picking at the factory the subassembly lenshead of a LF lens for making of it an Elmar for Leica… (an odd thought I made looking at the "L" hereunder) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited September 8, 2019 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299613-help-in-dating-an-old-elmar-135-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3815646'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2019 Share #24 Posted September 8, 2019 … or translates into "137mm lens product #2781 , coupled for Leica in year 1948 order#1650"... (the callygraphy of "2781" and the long "1650..." look different….) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 8, 2019 Share #25 Posted September 8, 2019 Hello Luigi, Also possibly 16 5 Oct 1948 Best Regards, Michael 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 8, 2019 Share #26 Posted September 8, 2019 Hello Luigi, Also possibly 16 5 Oct 1948 Best Regards, Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 8, 2019 Share #27 Posted September 8, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Again Luigi, It also looks like the handwriting of the person who wrote the "16" and the " 2781" Is not the same hand writing as "5 Oct 1948" Best Regards, Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2019 Share #28 Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello Again Luigi, It also looks like the handwriting of the person who wrote the "16" and the " 2781" Is not the same hand writing as "5 Oct 1948" Best Regards, Michael Hello Michael ! Eh… deciphering… : I agree that there is no relation between the handwriting of 2781 and the one of 16.... : that's why I think that 2781 is contemporary of original manufacturing of lens'cell, while the other "long" is some later factory upgrade/rework ; but about the "long" writing, observing it better under strong light my findings are : - The first digit almost surely is a 9, not a 1 (it can be vaguely seen also in my so-so picture… in this case, the "9" of 1948 can be from the same hand, I'd say) - The 6th symbol from left is not a T : has some resemblance with the "L" of the classic Leica writing.. can be something else ( "S" ?) but I bet isn't a T Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited September 8, 2019 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299613-help-in-dating-an-old-elmar-135-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3816049'>More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 9, 2019 Share #29 Posted September 9, 2019 (edited) Hello Luigi, What I wrote was that i DID see a similarity between the "16" and the "2781". I think that they were written by the same person. I can also see that the "16" could just as easily be a "96". Does that mean that the "2781" might be a "2789"? The "5 Oct 1948" looks like it was written by someone else. I think that the "t" in "Oct" is a "t' since the 2 sides of the top of the "t" appear to be made from 2 separate strokes. Not a continuous stroke that the beginning of an "L" would probably be. Best Regards, Michael Edited September 9, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted September 9, 2019 Share #30 Posted September 9, 2019 Before discussing the production 135 Elmars f 4.5 with serials starting at 142001, I show here what would seem to be an odd- duck upgrade. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Features noted: coupled, ucoated, chrome distance flange, all lens information on the front not the side of the lens cell, a 42mm front rim, post- war aperature scale, aperature adjust ring rotates in the opposite direction.. offset infinity line with infared mark. The lens head is very different from a normal 135 Elmar and they are not interchangeable. No internal markings. My best guess is that this lens started life in 1932 mounted on a Nagle/Kodak, Recomar camera where the lens information could only be viewed from the front. Perhaps sometime in the 50's or 60's , the lens cell was removed from the Recomar camera and adapted to a post-war 135 mount similar to a Hektor. The lens head will not fit any Hektor. All Recomar 135 Elmar's I have seen have the old aperature spacing numbers as would be expected for the 1928 to 1932 period. Thiele does not list this serial, but it is close to others sold to Nagel for their cameras. Why anyone would go to the effort to moderinize such an old lens is beyond me. Any thought appreciated. More about the lenses leitz sold to other camera producers (100106 to 120000) in a later post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Features noted: coupled, ucoated, chrome distance flange, all lens information on the front not the side of the lens cell, a 42mm front rim, post- war aperature scale, aperature adjust ring rotates in the opposite direction.. offset infinity line with infared mark. The lens head is very different from a normal 135 Elmar and they are not interchangeable. No internal markings. My best guess is that this lens started life in 1932 mounted on a Nagle/Kodak, Recomar camera where the lens information could only be viewed from the front. Perhaps sometime in the 50's or 60's , the lens cell was removed from the Recomar camera and adapted to a post-war 135 mount similar to a Hektor. The lens head will not fit any Hektor. All Recomar 135 Elmar's I have seen have the old aperature spacing numbers as would be expected for the 1928 to 1932 period. Thiele does not list this serial, but it is close to others sold to Nagel for their cameras. Why anyone would go to the effort to moderinize such an old lens is beyond me. Any thought appreciated. More about the lenses leitz sold to other camera producers (100106 to 120000) in a later post. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299613-help-in-dating-an-old-elmar-135-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3816819'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 10, 2019 Share #31 Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) Wow, Alan, That's really an odd Elmar !! Your hipotesis about provenience from a MF Nagel or so is quite reasonable : time ago I was tempted to buy such a Camera… was a Nagel,iirc, and the lens was right an Elmar 13,5 - writings in front : by memory , the f/stop actuation was of course all different from the item you depict… so it was really a rather complex job to make such an item, which has definitely the look of a normal Leica lens… What to think about the economics of such a work ? my only idea is that it could date to the very first age after WWII end… sparse spares/components available at the factory… some machine tools available… regular production schedules yet to be re-established, cheap labor cost… a time in which "any work is good if there's something to do"... Edited September 10, 2019 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 10, 2019 Share #32 Posted September 10, 2019 On 9/9/2019 at 5:29 PM, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello Luigi, What I wrote was that i DID see a similarity between the "16" and the "2781". I think that they were written by the same person. I can also see that the "16" could just as easily be a "96". Does that mean that the "2781" might be a "2789"? No, Michael, the "2781" is SURELY 2781 , I can swear on this, and "16" is 99% a "96" (with a strong correctly angled lighting… difficult to photograph unless having the time to make the correct stage… ) ; about the "L or T"... I admit it's questionable . I'm biased by the "L" of Leica classic writing…. (I regret that when, as a boy, I "stabilized" my own signature, the "L" of my first name came out quite different and so went on till now.. they were years in which I didn't suffer yet of Leica passion… ) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 10, 2019 Share #33 Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) Hello Luigi, If you look at the "t" of the "Oct" you can see that the left side of the horizontal portion comes down a bit to the vertical line and then stops. While the right side of the horizontal portion begins at the vertical line and then goes up a bit. It looks like it might be 2 different strokes. Not as likely with the top of an "L" as it might be with crossing a "t" when scratching in metal. Best Regards, Michael Edited September 10, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 11, 2019 Share #34 Posted September 11, 2019 13 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said: Wow, Alan, That's really an odd Elmar !! …. my only idea is that it could date to the very first age after WWII end… Thinking better… "very first age after WWII" is not so consistent with the new f stop scale… Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted September 11, 2019 Share #35 Posted September 11, 2019 On 9/3/2019 at 9:27 AM, willeica said: I never put filters on any lens. I have a few old ones as collectors’ items, but I find that filters are unlikely to improve performance and may ,indeed, disimprove it. If I want protection I use a lens hood. I have never got a scratch of any kind in the front element of any of my Leica lenses. As for the filter thread it is unlikely that a pre-war lens would have the same thread pitch as a modern filter. There is a table in Laney’s book about which filter fits which lens. Jerzy may have further details about this specific lens and its construction. William Leica used 0.5mm pitch filters for larger filters than the industry standard which usually changed at 37.5mm from 0.5 to 0.75. I certainly have some Leica 43mm filters with 0.5mm thread pitch and not old ones either. On a different matter I thought the 135mm/f4.5 Hektor lens, (which I have) was only marketed as non-RF coupled and for Visoflex use. Mine certainly has no RF coupling that I can see. I suppose it would always be possible to set it to infinity on the Visoflex focusing ring and then have an RF coupled 41mm long focusing adapter, or should it be 40mm? I still get it wrong coupling M39 Visoflex lenses to an M39 Visoflex replacement adapter and then to an LTM body. I know that M Visoflex lenses have a 68.8mm flange focal distance but what about LTM Visoflex lenses? Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 11, 2019 Share #36 Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) Hello Wilson, The rangefinder//range/viewfinder coupled 135mm, F4.5, Hektor comes in both screw mount & bayonet mount versions. The lens head is available separately for use on Visoflex I, II, IIa, III as well as Bellows I & II with appropriate adapters. The focusing mount that the separable lens head (Also available separately.) couples with is a 16459/ZOOAN. Bayonet mount "M" cameras have a flange to film distance of 27.8mm. Screw mount Leica's have a 28.8mm flange to film distance. The adapters for using screw mount lenses on bayonet mount cameras have a thickness of 1mm. Accessories & adapters take these differences into account. It is the "M" mount cameras that are 1mm thinner front to back than their smaller & lighter screw mount siblings. Best Regards, Michael Edited September 11, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 11, 2019 Share #37 Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, wlaidlaw said: ... I suppose it would always be possible to set it to infinity on the Visoflex focusing ring and then have an RF coupled 41mm long focusing adapter, or should it be 40mm?.... Wilson Leitz sold both long focus adapters with RF coupling : for SM Leicas and for BM Leicas (1mm longer) : 14073 and 14072 respectively ; of course, one had to mount on them not the Hektor for Visoflex, but only its lens unit, unscrewed from the Viso "short" focusing mount (when bought separately it's ZOOAN - hereunder) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited September 11, 2019 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299613-help-in-dating-an-old-elmar-135-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3818338'>More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted September 12, 2019 Share #38 Posted September 12, 2019 There is a similar 135mm Elmar for sale now, might it be like the one that seems to have been converted to standard Leica use? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Prototype-blac-nickel-Leica-Elmar-13-5cm-4-5-NO-SERIAL-NUMBER-for-Reflex-Korelle/323854459033?hash=item4b673ae099:g:TKAAAOSwtRxdJK-B Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 12, 2019 Share #39 Posted September 12, 2019 Curios and intriguing item, thanks for the link ! A sort of "Korelle ZOOAN" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted September 13, 2019 Share #40 Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) Factory records seem to show that Leitz started recording lens serial numbers at 92201 in 1932. Now, there have been quite a few observations in the 7xxxx and 8xxxx groups, so at least there are some exceptions, but fully machined serials engraved on the exterior are not common below 92201. Thiele shows 17 production lots in this 5 digit era. Interestingly, they are 50mm Elmar and Hektor, 73 Hektor and 90 Fat Elmars. No 135 Elmars are shown, even though it is an early lens made available in 1930 with the model C. Records, and all the data I have seen, suggest that Leitz set aside serial numbers from 100,111 to 120,000 for use on lenses sold to other camera makers, predominately Nagel. Again, Thiele shows some 20 lots were used for other cameras than Leica. A small very rare group of 105.6.3 Elmars and a couple of prototypes are also mixed in. Unfortunately, some of these lots do not have ending serials for the lot. Either nothing was recorded in the lens books, or it was unreadable, or production just stopped and a gap was left. About 6000 numbers of this "Outside Production" were not used. The highest lens here is probably 113983 from records. I have recorded about 150 lenses in this range (100111 to 120000) and the highest I found is 113934 on a Welti, in close agreement with facrtory records. As therse other maker cameras used compur shutters, the engraving was typically moved from the side to the front rim for the 135''s. Here is a shot of some of my Nagle cameras, Puppile, Vollenda, and Librette: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Starting at 120001 there are some 40 more lots of the above listed leitz lenses plus the 105/6.3 (evidently derived via the 105/4.5 used for other camera makers), before we get to the first serilized lot for the 135 Elmar at 142001. All of these lots are just listed as 1932 without the specific month. And as often noted, dates may be serial request dates and not actual production dates. It still seem odd to me that serilzation for the 135 Elmar does not occur until 142001. Maybe that is why we see relatively so many 3 digit and unnumbered 135 Elmars whereas 73, 90 and 105 do not seem to have 3 digit or unnumbered examples and have many many lots with lower serials than the 135's. I guess it is possible that leitz did not assign lots serially. If factory records contain monthly production data that would help clarify what happened when. Here are 135 Elmars from this first lot: 142 249 142560 142679. The placement of the serial number varies somewhat in the early lots The next lot is shown here, again with some variaion in serial placement: Also, when the serial was moved from the top rim, outer edge, to the side where ELW F = 13.5cm is engraved, it was changed to f =13.5cm and rotated slightly to have room for the serial. Also, 150584 shown here is listed in Thiele as a 50 Hektor, so again records are not perfect. The final lot is shown in the next post. Edited September 13, 2019 by alan mcfall remove second photograph 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Starting at 120001 there are some 40 more lots of the above listed leitz lenses plus the 105/6.3 (evidently derived via the 105/4.5 used for other camera makers), before we get to the first serilized lot for the 135 Elmar at 142001. All of these lots are just listed as 1932 without the specific month. And as often noted, dates may be serial request dates and not actual production dates. It still seem odd to me that serilzation for the 135 Elmar does not occur until 142001. Maybe that is why we see relatively so many 3 digit and unnumbered 135 Elmars whereas 73, 90 and 105 do not seem to have 3 digit or unnumbered examples and have many many lots with lower serials than the 135's. I guess it is possible that leitz did not assign lots serially. If factory records contain monthly production data that would help clarify what happened when. Here are 135 Elmars from this first lot: 142 249 142560 142679. The placement of the serial number varies somewhat in the early lots The next lot is shown here, again with some variaion in serial placement: Also, when the serial was moved from the top rim, outer edge, to the side where ELW F = 13.5cm is engraved, it was changed to f =13.5cm and rotated slightly to have room for the serial. Also, 150584 shown here is listed in Thiele as a 50 Hektor, so again records are not perfect. The final lot is shown in the next post. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299613-help-in-dating-an-old-elmar-135-cm/?do=findComment&comment=3819086'>More sharing options...
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