My dream for a future EVF-M

[Jeff S]

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3 hours ago, evikne said:

I just had another (weird?) idea: What about an optical viewfinder with an electronic split screen overlay taken from the sensor, instead of the mechanical? It would look and feel almost like a real old fashioned rangefinder, but it would be immune from any kind of focus shift or calibration issues.

And for those who want more choices: With the push of a button we could also  fill the optical window with a fully electronic image with the actual depth of field displayed. The same button could then give us three revolving choices: optical viewfinder with electronic split screen, or an electronic image with or without an electronic split screen.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/leicarumors.com/2015/10/14/leicas-patents-for-optoelectronic-rangefinder.aspx/amp/

Jeff

[TomB_tx]

I've been using Leica RFs and a variety of SLRs for over 50 years. I've found Leica RFs to be at least equal to SLRs in reliability and durability. My M9 is the only RF that needed to be re-calibrated just from normal use. (A couple other models came back mis-calibrated after CLA service from independent techs.) I've had a few lenses that needed to be initially calibrated, but most have been fine out of the box. 

I've also shot tests of several SLRs comparing the focus plane on film with the SLR finder, and found the accuracy varied a lot, and in general - on cameras that had seen years of use - my Leica RFs proved more accurate at moderate distances (with 50 mm lenses). The SLRs appeared to suffer from mirror misalignment and focusing screen tolerances (removable screens). The older SLRs with fixed screens and solid mirror rests were more consistent. Of course, most shooting stops lenses down so the focus variations aren't noticed as much as in my (f1.4-2) tests.

My trials with dSLRs for manual focus were dismal - the screens aren't really designed to show accurate focus, the view and magnification is worse, and the "in-focus" aids are imprecise. If you can judge sharpness it's hard to beat a plain SLR ground-glass screen in good light. In dim light I'll take an M model RF any day.

A good "mirrorless" EVF used manually for judging sharpness has no calibration issues, and using magnification can really nail focus - even my original A7 does this well. Also works well in low light, as the finder stays bright, but a reduced refresh rate is irritating. From that standpoint the current M10 and 020 Visoflex is a good combination. With normal and moderate wide lenses the RF is ideal. The 020 can be better with long lenses and ultrawides, and since I use them rarely I like the combination. I wouldn't compromise the RF for a hybrid system.

But as 90%+ of my work is with 35, 50, & 90 lenses, and I don't care for ultra-fast lenses, the M10 RF suits me better than other options.

[Guest]

Why stop at a built in EVF?

Stick an auto focus system in their as well.

[Peter Kilmister]

1 minute ago, steve 1959 said:

Why stop at a built in EVF?

Stick an auto focus system in their as well.

No! The simplicity of manual focus is why many of us choose a Leica M. AF is for the people who click-shoot. A Rangefinder allows us to choose our focal point rather than a toy computer deciding for us.

[John Ricard]

(Before I begin, for the love of God, I'm begging you all to please NOT post that hand draw diagram of how the rangefinder mechanism works.  I just can't...)

The EVF is a godsend compared to just having the rangefinder as the only option and the current version is an improvement over the M240 version.  But I agree with the OP that the EVF is less than perfect and often the user finds it easier to just forget about the EVF and take a chance nailing the focus with the rangefinder.  Most of the time that I use the EVF it is because I am using a Nikon lens on the M10.

That said, I really feel Leica should release information about the user can make rangefinder adjustments himself/herself.  There is no information about this process released by Leica, and there isn't a single video on You Tube about the process for those of us who might be brave enough to try. I've read on this forum that one of the adjustments is pretty easy to do -I guess that being the one with the giant screw on the front of some bodies, but its a shame that there is no clear information on how to do this.  Also, it would be cool if Leica followed 7 Artisans and provided the ability to adjust the lenses directly.   At the very least, the Leica stores should provide this service (at a cost) quickly for anyone who brings a camera in.

Edited July 23, 2019 by John Ricard

[John Ricard]

7 minutes ago, Peter Kilmister said:

 A Rangefinder allows us to choose our focal point rather than a toy computer deciding for us.

I'm as big a fan of the rangefinder system as anyone else on the board...but isn't what you're saying here factually incorrect.  Once I frame an image, my Nikons (D810 and Z6) allow me to place my focus point on the top of the screen, bottom of the screen, left side, right side, etc.  And, truth be told, the auto focus on my Z6 is the most accurate thing I've ever seen on a Nikon.  And I started using Nikon bodies with the F4 over 20 years ago.  The M10, forces me to have the focal point dead center of the frame.  Sure I can focus and recompose, but at shallow DoF or any shot taken at close range, this technique will lead to focus errors.

[Guest]

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14 minutes ago, Peter Kilmister said:

No! The simplicity of manual focus is why many of us choose a Leica M. AF is for the people who click-shoot. A Rangefinder allows us to choose our focal point rather than a toy computer deciding for us.

I know it wasn't obvious but my post was tongue in cheek.

I love the clear viewfinder and rangefinder and firmly believe having a built in EVF would be a very bad move for leica.

 

[jkcampbell2]

24 minutes ago, Peter Kilmister said:

No! The simplicity of manual focus is why many of us choose a Leica M. AF is for the people who click-shoot. A Rangefinder allows us to choose our focal point rather than a toy computer deciding for us.

You might want to take a look at Magnum Photos, there are a lot of "click-shooters" over there, some quite good. I too love Leica rangefinders with manual focusing lens but I certainly don't feel the need to put everyone else in the camp of "toy computer" users who can not make a focusing decision. Cheers, jc

[Peter Kilmister]

@John Ricard Before you used to press buttons Nikon had a very good SLR with MF. Then they suddenly changed to AF and buttons took over. More buttons than a shirt front. Too many buttons. Composure was easy with an MF SLR Nikon. They over-complicated the issue. I sold my Nikon in disgust. If you are happy with it then please leave those of us that prefer to select our focal point without the need for electronics to carry on.

[Guest]

An EVF is like some horrible dark laggy tunnel but a Leica m finder is like clear daylight and is very beautiful..

I had an olympus ep-5 pen with a VF-4 EVF on top and although the camera was very good despite the stupid over indulged menu i never liked the EVF set up.

I also took my olympus to london camera exchange and tried it side by side with the leica q EVF  and the olympus had a clear edge despite being an older camera.

I have the type 262 and i love it.

[Peter Kilmister]

I am going to bed now while a thunderstorm takes place outside, probably caused by people who want to kill MF.

[Matlock]

6 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

I am going to bed now while a thunderstorm takes place outside, probably caused by people who want to kill MF.

Good idea. Storm not too bad in our part of Essex. This thread amuses me as it seems that some are hell bent in killing off the M series, mostly those who seem intent in solving a problem that doesn't exist. If you don't think that the Leica M10 (or whatever) meets your needs then buy something else.

[Photon42]

8 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

@John Ricard Before you used to press buttons Nikon had a very good SLR with MF. Then they suddenly changed to AF and buttons took over. More buttons than a shirt front. Too many buttons. Composure was easy with an MF SLR Nikon. They over-complicated the issue. I sold my Nikon in disgust. If you are happy with it then please leave those of us that prefer to select our focal point without the need for electronics to carry on.

I always enjoy reading your comments - but then this thread title begs for controversy 😎

 

[evikne]

Maybe I should emphasize that my intention with this thread was absolutely not to complain about anything. I absolutely love my M10 and its rangefinder! I just wanted to put forward some ideas and thoughts about a gentle development that I guess will come sooner or later anyway. But for me it is very important to keep the original RF feeling and experience in the best way.

[Fedro]

I believe that the topic has been discussed ad nauseam in several other threads as long as I remember

Some people would love an EVF, others won't. A few would like some sort of in between mix.

If Leica ever proceeds with an EVF on an M, I am fairly sure that they will continue offering a version with OVF as it is part of their legacy and plenty of their customers want it

[ianman]

13 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

AF is for the people who click-shoot.

No, it's not.

[John Ricard]

14 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

...please leave those of us that prefer to select our focal point without the need for electronics to carry on.

Will do.  But can you explain exactly how you are selecting your focus point on an M body?  On my M10 I'm forced to use the center point only.  Is there some ability to select a different focus point on the M10 that I am unaware of?  As I mentioned earlier, its pretty easy to do this on my Nikon Z6. In fact I can use either the circular control on the back or the joystick above it. 

[pico]

27 minutes ago, John Ricard said:

can you explain exactly how you are selecting your focus point on an M body?

Place the focus rectangle on what you want in focus, don't move the focus again then recompose/reframe. Really, any focus error will likely be undetectable.

[John Ricard]

6 minutes ago, pico said:

Place the focus rectangle on what you want in focus, don't move the focus again then recompose/reframe. Really, any focus error will likely be undetectable.

If you like, I will make a You Tube video just for you showing that is simply not true.  Shooting at apertures typically used by Leica shooters -who are known for their love of fast glass, you will absolutely get focus error from shooting portraits and using the focus and recompose method.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[evikne]

I did the same thing even when I used my Canon DSLR: always the middle focus point and recomposed. Because that was much faster and more reliable. And my favorite lens was 85/1.2 wide open.