Jump to content
peterv

Will the long wait for the S3 bring anything new?

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I was wondering, what takes them so long? Word on this forum is that the camera will be presented and available in September, which will be a year after Photokina.

Do they want to come out with a flawless medium format camera and is the tweaking of the camera taking much longer than originally expected and if so, how come? Are certain parts perhaps unavailable? 

Or are they working on new features that's weren't announced at Photokina to make the camera more competitive, and what could those be?

Does anyone have any idea?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no info but would bet they are trying to figure out how to bring this camera to the market at a price that will result in sales to more people than a tiny subset of this forum (i.e. people who bought the lenses at a large cost which they cannot sell now at a reasonable price and so still frequent this somewhat stagnant space) without losing money on each one they sell. 

Edited by albireo_double

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the current environment for camera sales, has caused them to pause on the S3 or limit the significance of the new model?  If you look at the link below to CIPA’s charts for 2017, 2018 and 2019 YTD, it does not seem to paint a pretty picture for camera sales particularly for 2019.

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-201905_e.pdf

If you look thru Nikon’s 2018 annual report, beginning on page 31, they reference more than once the “shrinking camera market”.  In addition the growth they appear to see is in the mirrorless market. “We will dedicate our efforts to mirrorless cameras, an area that, despite presenting issues for the Company, is garnering attention as the driver behind the growth of the camera market.”

https://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/ar/pdf/nr2018/18nikonreport_e05.pdf

It does not appear the camera market in general is having a good year, particularly if you are not in the mirrorless market.  I don’t know, this is just a guess looking at limited data, it is a somewhat opaque industry as far as easy access to sales data goes.   It seems like it would be a challenging time to bring a medium format dslr to market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my mildly informed guess. You have a system that's a few generations old. Each generation makes stronger demands on the whole system, but not every part is upgraded every time. That means that, with each new model, there are unexpected places where the performance falls behind, and then another subsystem has to be upgraded. Only when this cycle ends is the camera ready for release. If the underperforming subsystem is in the lenses, it's a REAL problem. Otherwise it's just a delay. I think (and hope) we're just in the delay stage while everything is brought up to the desired performance level.

--Matt

Edited by mgrayson3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last week I was at the Leica Headquarter in Wetzlar let repair my S007. I had the pleasure to speak with the Ex-Leader of the S-System. All he could say is that they are in the final test phase to make the last adjustments. I guess that the Leica engineer don't really bother about other systems or manufactures or what they release. They just take the time they need. When you are there and feel this spirit you can get a little insight in this special Leica hemisphere. Its like another world. Everywhere are walking these engineers and workers with their white coats...

I had a look on the Leica S1 from 1996. So now 2019 we get the S3 🙂

 

I hope that we see the S3 soon...

Edited by Jan1985

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what was described when it was announced, the S3 will firstly bring a new higher resolution sensor and even bigger dynamic range, so yes.

Those in the same body form and not waiting on a new range of lenses to be developed as would happen if the form was changed radically.

This is for a small subset of photographers here and worldwide as is medium format in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

15 minutes ago, hoppyman said:

From what was described when it was announced, the S3 will firstly bring a new higher resolution sensor and even bigger dynamic range, so yes.

 

And new color array, better reds, etc...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

Last week I was at the Leica Headquarter in Wetzlar let repair my S007. I had the pleasure to speak with the Ex-Leader of the S-System. All he could say is that they are in the final test phase to make the last adjustments. I guess that the Leica engineer don't really bother about other systems or manufactures or what they release. They just take the time they need. When you are there and feel this spirit you can get a little insight in this special Leica hemisphere. Its like another world. Everywhere are walking these engineers and workers with their white coats...

I had a look on the Leica S1 from 1996. So now 2019 we get the S3 🙂

 

I hope that we see the S3 soon...

I have been there as well, and this is both the admirable part and the frustrating part. It is great that they take care and produce the best camera they think they can make without worrying about the competition, but unfortunately, I think there is also the danger of hubris getting the better of them as well...it is all well and good to engineer a good camera, but if it costs multiples of the competition with a fraction of the specs released months or years after comparable competitors, they will be in trouble. I think a lot fewer photographers buy S cameras as jewellery or as a fashion accessory like some do with the M. People mostly buy the S to use it, and if the value and price to performance ratio is not there, I think it will be a really rough launch for Leica.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually am happy to see the competitions form Fuji which offer tons of tech at 10k and Hasselblad which offer jewels like build for 5750.

This will at least bring down the price of S3, which actually it is also a good thing for Leica if this can bring more users and rebuild S reputation. I personally feel S fit Leica’s business model well, niche and high profit margins.

I might be minority but S3 with awesome S glasses is still the best MF system for me. Only I wish it can be more reasonable priced for price/feature ratio. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last year I visited a photographers workshop who produce really amazing portraits. He said, to do photography often has nothing to do with very rational and economic decisions. You have to feel good with what you are working. And I can only say. I never had a romance with a Fuji System, Hasselblad or anything else. My heart is dedicated to the S. Why? I can't answer... Everytime I pickup my Canon on Weddings I feel truly nothing. It's a brick that does the job. But then when I take the S or my M I am more passioned in what I do. Why? I don't know...

Edited by Jan1985

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Jan1985 said:

Last year I visited a photographers workshop who produce really amazing portraits. He said, to do photography often has nothing to do with very rational and economic decisions. You have to feel good with what you are working. And I can only say. I never had a romance with a Fuji System, Hasselblad or anything else. My heart is dedicated to the S. Why? I can't answer... Everytime I pickup my Canon on Weddings I feel truly nothing. It's a brick that does the job. But then when I take the S or my M I am more passioned in what I do. Why? I don't know...

I agree with you about passion and feeling when using Leica product. I gain joy while using M, not so much S. And the final result is pretty pleasing and because the way it allow me to take photographs basically let me have a different opportunity at making different kind of shots. It's hard to explain, an dI am sure everyone here agree.

But, depending on the type of photography you do. (I mainly landscape+cityscape), sometimes, it's hard to justify the quality that S is producing in comparison with other competition. I do wish they can have a better camera, the S3, or S4... cause it is a unique camera system with good color profile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

I agree with you about passion and feeling when using Leica product. I gain joy while using M, not so much S. And the final result is pretty pleasing and because the way it allow me to take photographs basically let me have a different opportunity at making different kind of shots. It's hard to explain, an dI am sure everyone here agree.

But, depending on the type of photography you do. (I mainly landscape+cityscape), sometimes, it's hard to justify the quality that S is producing in comparison with other competition. I do wish they can have a better camera, the S3, or S4... cause it is a unique camera system with good color profile.

That is really depend. Quality is not as simple as on paper such as extra pixel count or one or two more stop DR for many people. It is not just sensor quality but system quality.

It is also depend on how individuals like DSLR as tool, I like the certain features of EVF camera myself but viewing through S’s OVF is just in another world pleasing experience. The operating of S007 is also fluent and smooth like modern Canon or Nikon. Focus wide open with shoot aperture is the most loved SLR feature as I almost never misfocus with landscape aperture f8-f11 shooting and my DOF window is always as intended. (Though I don’t trust Leica s top lcd digital DOF info) Most of my landscape shooting require optimum aperture to cover DOF than simple infinity focusing.  

S problem as I saw is mainly reliability and customer service inconsistencies and also time to market, maybe communication with customers. These really hurt Leica S’s reputation. At the same time, this also make Leica S one of greatest bargain for buyer IMHO. Out of all lenses used, I like S glasses rendering the best, bar none. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny thing is I started this thread and immediately after, I got a little preoccupied with buying a brand new 007 from the Leica Store in Berlin, who have a great offer at this moment, no affiliation, the deal has been done and I’m now a happy owner of a 007 which will arrive on Tuesday.

Anyway, while doing some research for the 007 I encountered various websites that stated that the 007 was released/available in August 2015, which was also a year after the announcement on Photokina 2014.

So with that knowledge I think the long wait for the S3 all of a sudden does not seem so long after all. 

And thanks for the replies!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I accidentally posted the reply that was meant for the other thread I’m following about the new Sigma thingy, it seems as though Leica S lens owners have yet another “platform” to use their wonderful glass on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, peterv said:

Funny thing is I started this thread and immediately after, I got a little preoccupied with buying a brand new 007 from the Leica Store in Berlin, who have a great offer at this moment, no affiliation, the deal has been done and I’m now a happy owner of a 007 which will arrive on Tuesday.

Anyway, while doing some research for the 007 I encountered various websites that stated that the 007 was released/available in August 2015, which was also a year after the announcement on Photokina 2014.

So with that knowledge I think the long wait for the S3 all of a sudden does not seem so long after all. 

And thanks for the replies!

Roughly 4 year cycle... same as recent M iterations.

Jeff

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hope Leica finds a good compromise between going their own way but also not forgetting competition completly.

Here are my wishes which I think could help to let the S system survive:

1) you can make a higher prices than others, but you also have to offer something additional for that. If a x1dII cost 6 k you can maybe take 10 k but not 16k.

2) AF needs to work reliable

3) 1 or 2 smaller sized lenses wouldnt hurt

4) please be more flexible to help people with sensor problems or Af-motor problemes without charging much money.

5) give your customers more information what we can expect in the future. long life time circle is fine, but give us at least an idea what will happen in the future

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

I just hope Leica finds a good compromise between going their own way but also not forgetting competition completly.

Here are my wishes which I think could help to let the S system survive:

1) you can make a higher prices than others, but you also have to offer something additional for that. If a x1dII cost 6 k you can maybe take 10 k but not 16k.

You might be too optimized about Leica price structure. If it is only 16K, many will actually quite happy about it. 

2) AF needs to work reliable

+10 Fully agree. DSLR's AF will never be as good as MILC with CDAF that can accurately focus down to pixel level, however, I would expect S at least reach Modern Canon Nikon level for single center spot in AFS mode. With S007, you do have the option to enable LCD focus which is CDAF. It can be extremely accurate as any MILC camera. This will work for case you don't have time pressure. 

3) 1 or 2 smaller sized lenses wouldnt hurt

+1 It will make S more attractive for sure. though most customer won't want prime lens slower than f4 and that is just one stop away from most Leica S glasses. Unless, some manual focus lenses. I can always dream. I think many people will feel delighted to have f2.5/f2.8 high performance manual glasses with S. I will pay full retail which I refuse to pay for all my AF glasses other than 100cron. 

Or, maybe more Summicron or Summilux statement glasses aiming for portrait that focus on center sharpness and rendering than cross frame sharpness to balance size and price. I can see these will help differentiate S system to other competitors and at least to draw more rich amateurs. It will be fun for sure.    

4) please be more flexible to help people with sensor problems or Af-motor problemes without charging much money.

+1

5) give your customers more information what we can expect in the future. long life time circle is fine, but give us at least an idea what will happen in the future

+1 but I would not blame they are not doing so. I guess the only reason, we customers care about this so much now is we have doubt about S's future. 

I just hope Leica finds a good compromise between going their own way but also not forgetting competition completly.

Here are my wishes which I think could help to let the S system survive:

1) you can make a higher prices than others, but you also have to offer something additional for that. If a x1dII cost 6 k you can maybe take 10 k but not 16k.

You might be too optimized about Leica price structure. If it is only 16K, many will actually quite happy about it. 

2) AF needs to work reliable

+10 Fully agree. DSLR's AF will never be as good as MILC with CDAF that can accurately focus down to pixel level, however, I would expect S at least reach Modern Canon Nikon level for single center spot in AFS mode. With S007, you do have the option to enable LCD focus which is CDAF. It can be extremely accurate as any MILC camera. This will work for case you don't have time pressure. 

3) 1 or 2 smaller sized lenses wouldnt hurt

+1 It will make S more attractive for sure. though most customer won't want prime lens slower than f4 and that is just one stop away from most Leica S glasses.  One more problem with slow lens on SLR is Viewfinder brightness. Unless, some manual focus lenses. I can always dream. I think many people will feel delighted to have f2.5/f2.8 high performance manual glasses with S. I will pay full retail which I refuse to pay for all my AF glasses other than 100cron. 

Or, maybe more Summicron or Summilux statement glasses aiming for portrait that focus on center sharpness and rendering than cross frame sharpness to balance size and price. I can see these will help differentiate S system to other competitors and at least to draw more rich amateurs. It will be fun for sure.  but, this will stress S's AF even more which is struggle now even with f2.5 lenses.   

4) please be more flexible to help people with sensor problems or Af-motor problemes without charging much money.

+1

5) give your customers more information what we can expect in the future. long life time circle is fine, but give us at least an idea what will happen in the future

+1 but I would not blame they are not doing so. I guess the only reason, we customers care about this so much now is we have doubt about S's future. 

Edited by ZHNL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...