Aperture und C1 - some comparisons

[holgerf]

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Hi Mac & Aperture users,

 

Having waited a long time until Apple presented us M8 support I did do some quick comparisons between the RAW convertion of C1 and Aperture:

 

(1) directly importing the DNGs to Aperture (default setting)

(2) converting DNG to TIFF with C1 (default setting) and then importing the TIFF to Aperture.

 

As I don’t like to be forced to do PP for every image I was interested which method would fulfill my needs best as a general workflow.I choose some shots, all made with coded lenses and Leica filters. I’m interested in exchanging my findings with yours. So far I found these differences illustrated by four examples:

 

(1) I often get a light green cast in white surfaces like walls and fabrics. Can be seen in sample-1 (look at the bookshelf and the white blanket) and in sample-2 (look at the white dishes).

 

(2) The greens themselves lack a certain yellow converted with C1. Look at sample-2 and sample-3. I made many shots with the greens around my home, same results with other samples.

 

(3) Some critical colors tend to be more realistic in Aperture. Look at the table’s color in sample-2.

 

(4) I prefer Aperture’s handling of luminance. Everything is a bit lighter in the midrange and giving the images a bit more of a glow. Can be seen in sample-3 and especially in sample-4 (here you really "feel" the sun shining through the leaves).

 

(5) Due to this there are more details in the lower midrange with Aperture again. Look at the bushes in sample-3 and the table’s surface in sample-2.

 

(6) Sharpness I found a little bit better in C1. Look at sample-4 which is actually a crop of 1326x883 pixel only. The differences are very small so I wonder whether they survive the reduction of the images for the web.

 

 

To be honest I was very suprised about the fact that Aperture became my favorite. Though I hated C1 for its cumbersome UI I always liked the quality of its results.

 

 

I would be happy to read some comments and experiences you have made with comparing the both.

 

Best

 

Holger

 

 

Sample 1 first C1, second Aperture

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Sample 2 first C1, second Aperture

 

Sample 3 first C1, second Aperture

 

Sample 4 first C1, second Aperture

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[jonoslack]

Hi Holger

whilst I also like Aperture, I've found Lightroom to be even better (not for workflow unfortunately, but for processing).

I'd be interested to see your comparisons. I've found greens to be too yellow in Aperture.

[Eoin]

Not surprising since Aperture is decoding based on the 1.06 - 1.09 colour values. Leica changed the Matrix values in the 1.091 firmware and they have remained constant.

 

Holger, before you commit to Aperture you may wish to test pinks, reds and purples, Aperture with it's current M8 entry has a problem with these and tends to oversaturate loosing all detail.

[holgerf]

Not surprising since Aperture is decoding based on the 1.06 - 1.09 colour values. Leica changed the Matrix values in the 1.091 firmware and they have remained constant.

 

Holger, before you commit to Aperture you may wish to test pinks, reds and purples, Aperture with it's current M8 entry has a problem with these and tends to oversaturate loosing all detail.

 

Eoin

 

Thanks for your advice concerning Lightroom. However I use Aperture from the first release (before M8 was there) and really prefer the workflow and the support of two monitors.

 

How you know that it’s based on the old FW? I thought that waitung for 1.10 was one of the reasons for the late support of the M8?

 

Concerning pinks, reds and purple I will have an eye on it …

 

Thanks and regards

Holger

[Eoin]

Holger, It may have been a typo on your behalf but I offer no advice on lightroom, personally I don't like the program or it's output, I'm a staunch Aperture user and will continue to be until it no longer meets my needs.

 

How I know aperture is using the matrix values form prior FW versions 1.06 to 1.09 is in the M1 & M2 settings in the raw.plist file. Every raw or DNG has whats called colour matrix 1 & 2, these values tell the decoder how to resolve/render the raw image data and more so the colour values to use. If you were to compare the values in the raw.plist for the M8 the M1 & 2 values match exactly the values that were present in M8 images prior to FW 1.091. Even more so was the values in the DNG colour matrix 1 & 2 were exactly the same i.e. values in both tables were exactly the same.

 

There is a utility called exiftool which you can use to extract the exif information from most raw type files and all these values can be seen

 

Since FW 1.091 these values have changed and the values in both tables are different and this seems to be in keeping with most other raw files. However aperture is still using the old values from FW 1.06 - 1.09 to render the DNG and this is where we are getting the subtle hues and not so subtle red/pink variations.

 

It is not just a matter of changing the M1 & M2 values in the raw.plist to match the DNG because there is also a MC table there which balances the hues and saturation. The MC table numbered 0 to 8 with positions 0(red primary) 4(green primary) 8(blue primary). These work on the colour subtraction method, i.e. reduce 3 green to shift towards magenta or reduce blue to shift towards yellow. The 2 segments before/after each primary i.e. 1,2Red 3,5Green 6,7Blue adjust the hues of each primary colour.

 

I have been working on a few different profiles for myself with better saturation in the green and less over saturation in the red/pink. the blue channel is still giving me some problems but I'll get there soon.

 

At the end of the day these raw converters can be compared to films as they all render differently, the colours they produce will all be different, it really just comes down to what you like in terms of colour and more importantly work flow. I do however like the workflow of Aperture more than any other raw converter and the image management side is the best fit for my needs and I'm also looking forward to version 2 whenever it's released. I have all the other converters C1Pro, LR, silkypix, Raw Developer, CS2/3 but none offer ME the flexability of Aperture as the main converter and CS/3 as the external editor with changes in images via CS/3 managed from within Aperture. There is a multitude of converters and a multitude of people who'll prefer one over the other, who's to say which is right or wrong, it's just a matter of preference, just like it was before with kodak or fuji film. Pick your poison!.

[holgerf]

Holger, It may have been a typo on your behalf but I offer no advice on lightroom, personally I don't like the program or it's output, I'm a staunch Aperture user and will continue to be until it no longer meets my needs.

 

Sorry Eoin, obviously I mixed up yours and Jono’s comment. How could I - using your hack all the time waiting for the M8 support!

 

There is a utility called exiftool which you can use to extract the exif information from most raw type files and all these values can be seen.

 

I know but being a thumb USER I hate using the Terminal, still waiting for a program with a OS X UI.

 

I have been working on a few different profiles for myself with better saturation in the green and less over saturation in the red/pink.

 

I have great respect to people like you taking the burdun to tweak a color-profile

 

…more importantly work flow. I do however like the workflow of Aperture more than any other raw converter and the image management side is the best fit for my needs and I'm also looking forward to version 2 whenever it's released.

 

Couldn’t be said better. When I saw the first demonstration of Aperture I immediately knew that this kind of workflow would be the future … bought it in the very moment of release. Honestly it helped me - as an amateur - to use RAW/DNG without any extra hussle.

 

BTW it’s funny that „your“ 35 Summilux is just in Carsten’s hands together with my 35 Summicron IV, interesting samples he shots!

 

Cheers

Holger

[Eoin]

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Holger, your new 75 Cron is next on his list, LOL. So I wouldn't be getting attached to it, .

 

Yes he seems to like the 35 Lux and I can see why since I knew the lens quite well. It would have stayed in the bag except for the fact I found it a little tight in the FOV. I much prefer the FOV of the 28. Anyway Carsten does the lens more justice than I ever did.

 

Anyway just to show the subtle differences between the Matrix values here are a few images,

 

All were shot daylight, with UV/IR filters on, No processing or white balance except for resize for web / sRGB and sharpening.

 

First Old Matrix values

Second Amended Current Matrix

 

You'll see the change in skintones of both Gchan and Jasmine, I would consider the amended more true to life. You'll also notice the blotchy pink tone in jasmines lips and cheek reduce somewhat.

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[Eoin]

Some Crops and yes Jasmine has sallow skin

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[jonoslack]

Hi Eoin

I hope you're well

 

Holger, It may have been a typo on your behalf but I offer no advice on lightroom, personally I don't like the program or it's output, I'm a staunch Aperture user and will continue to be until it no longer meets my needs.

Sorry - my comment I think!

I agree that the workflow is much better with Aperture, and I guess I'll be waiting for version 2 before I finally commit myself.

Still, having done a default preset in Lightroom to reduce the saturation, I'm getting good results - and I like the clarity control.

 

I also really appreciate all the work you've done Eoin.

[fjmcsu]

Eoin,

I have been using the D200 hack with back-up with the default matrix sttings as you had suggeted since the release of the Aperture support for M8. Do you plan any other updates to that hack/matrix values? I have not heard if there were any changes in the coLor matrix in the recent version(1.1070) Thanks again for all your work on this issue..

[Eoin]

Hi Francisco,

 

I don't know where you are exactly on this,

1. Are you still using the D200 profile and never tried the official Apple profile as part of the 10.4.10 OSX update?.

 

2. Did you update try the Apple version and then reverted the D200 profile?

 

3. If you tried the official profile what were your feeling / results like?.

 

When I know the answers to the above then I'll be in a better position to advise you.

 

I've not heard from many people except my self and Jono who are not happy with the official apple M8 profile, perhaps you have something to add?.

[nryn]

Trying to parse the double negatives in your last sentence but actually, Eoin, you heard from me. I'm not particularly happy with the official Apple M8 profile and am still using the D200 settings, which I find completely usable even if a bit understated.

 

Hopefully they'll update the official profile with the "settled" color matrix values.

[fjmcsu]

Hi Francisco,

 

I don't know where you are exactly on this,

1. Are you still using the D200 profile and never tried the official Apple profile as part of the 10.4.10 OSX update?.

 

2. Did you update try the Apple version and then reverted the D200 profile?

 

3. If you tried the official profile what were your feeling / results like?.

 

When I know the answers to the above then I'll be in a better position to advise you.

 

I've not heard from many people except my self and Jono who are not happy with the official apple M8 profile, perhaps you have something to add?.

Eoin,,

I am using your hack(the latest) as I was not happy with the latest Aperture matrix.I have saved it as an option to use as you instructed & will occaionally try it since it is stored as the 'original" matrix in my plist.I have not been happy with the oversatuated pinks & reds especially when it comes to skin tones.So 99% of the time I start with the D200 hack matrix that you last posted .My undeeratanding was that you hadn't updated it since the new Aperure matrix was released since it was based on the old firmware anyway.

[Eoin]

Francisco & Narayan, I was working on a pofile for Jono but the bugger went and jumped ship to lightroom. I kind of left it for a bit to see what was coming in the next FW update. Seeing as there is no change I'll have a look at this over the next few days and post something for you.

[jonoslack]

Francisco & Narayan, I was working on a pofile for Jono but the bugger went and jumped ship to lightroom. I kind of left it for a bit to see what was coming in the next FW update. Seeing as there is no change I'll have a look at this over the next few days and post something for you.

Bugger ahoy.

I'm back onboard - but I AM using filters.

 

send it to me and I'll get back to doing some testing (printing big from lightroom is still horrid).

 

Please forgive me . . . . . .

[fjmcsu]

Francisco & Narayan, I was working on a pofile for Jono but the bugger went and jumped ship to lightroom. I kind of left it for a bit to see what was coming in the next FW update. Seeing as there is no change I'll have a look at this over the next few days and post something for you.

 

Eoin,

Thanks I await the data!