a mini-digital SWC ... Leica CL + Voigtländer 10mm

[Dave in Wales]

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23 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Thank you for the compliment.

There's no secret sauce that's simple. Good B&W work is a matter of understanding the recording medium, an exposure, and how to render it. I experiment with my camera and lens a lot so as to understand the sensor and what I can get out of them. On exposure, well, the experience lent by 50 plus years of shooting B&W inform me as to what I want in my exposure, and what I want to lose. Regards rendering, I have a set of rather pathological presets for Lightroom that I made to push exposures in extreme different directions ... I usually know which one is going to work for a given scene, but I often try one or two of them as experiments. They let me see what's there and how to go.. Once I choose one as a base, I tweak it until I get what I want ... and if I can't get what I want, I either start over or just stop (and maybe return at a later time). 

An 18mm focal length is the same regardless of the format the lens will cover. Both the lenses I used are designed to cover a FF format, which means they cover APS-C easily since its a smaller format, but their focal lengths are the same as any lens made with the same focal length. Your TL lens is designed to cover APS-C so if you could use it on FF format the corner and edge performance might degrade a bit. But if it's truly an 18mm focal length at the set marking, it will have the exact same FoV as the Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm at the same focal length. 

Using the V10 on the CL is like using any other M-mount adapted lens: exposure modes are limited to Manual and Aperture priority AE, and you must focus the lens manually. You set aperture and focus on the lens using the lens' controls. (Of course, the DoF of a 10mm lens is so great that I normally just set f/8 and about 10 feet on the scale, and forget about it.) With such a short focal length, camera stability is critical for good sharpness so I push to keep the exposure time short:  1/100 second or less. A tripod is a big gain in sharpness with these short lenses but I've been concentrating on hand-held work ... I used a tripod for these example photos and set focus  based upon the easily measured distance from the bicycle helmet to the camera.

Once again, thank you.

[Boojay]

On 6/28/2019 at 2:57 PM, Dippy said:

I'm a HUGE fan of this lens on my CL. Though my style is very different to yours I love your shots and the way you are using it.

I also admit to having just this morning snaffled up a bargain Sony A7r ii so that I can mount the 10mm on a full frame camera and get the glorious 130 degree angle of view.

You have to tell me where I can see what you do with that combination, will be a treat I'm sure! 😀

 

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[ramarren]

A good friend from my work days had lunch with me yesterday. He's another photo head ... I had the CL+V10 with me and he snapped this shot of me. 

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"... and never mind my big hands, and nose."

Leica CL + Voigtländer HyperWide 10mm f/5.6
ISO 160 @ f/8 @ 1/15

This photo points out that when shooting people with an ultra-ultra-wide lens, you really have to be careful about the planes of elements and the subject to camera distance or foreshortening will bite you...! 

[ramarren]

On 6/28/2019 at 6:57 AM, Dippy said:

I'm a HUGE fan of this lens on my CL. Though my style is very different to yours I love your shots and the way you are using it.

I also admit to having just this morning snaffled up a bargain Sony A7r ii so that I can mount the 10mm on a full frame camera and get the glorious 130 degree angle of view.

Thanks for the compliment! 

I'll be interested to see how it performs with the A7rII. When I had the A7, I was very unhappy with the performance of most M-mount lenses under 50mm focal length. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ramarren

[invisbleflash]

Back in the 1970's my go-to cams were Leica M3, Nikon F and SWC.  Shot tons of pix with the SWC. Wish the Indians and Chinese made a FF 6mp back for $1200 for the SWC. 

(I tried to upload lots more SWC pix in other posts but it says my limit is reached.)

'Crazy'  - Hassy SWC 1974 L.A. 

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Edited July 3, 2019 by invisbleflash

[Dippy]

15 hours ago, Dave in Wales said:

Very many thanks, most informative.

However, your Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm f/4 ASPH is FF and not APS-C as is my TL18-56, will this make any difference?

 I must admit I'm most unsure of my ground here.

Also what CL camera features does one sacrifice when using the V-10? AF obviously, but are there any others?

As an aside, I must say that I'm most impressed with the quality of your mono work, is there a 'simple' secret, that you'd like to share?

Thanks for your patience.

I have sympathy! It took me ages to get my head around this particular conundrum when I first met it. How I think about it is this.....

Stop thinking about the type of lens and start thinking about the size of the sensor it's mounted on.  10mm (or any other focal length lens) gives the same angle of view on a particular sensor size regardless of whether the lens was designed for full frame or crop sensor. It's the sensor size that dictates the AoV for a lens of a given focal length. 

When you go to a different sensor size then the AoV changes for that 10mm lens but again its a constant AoV regardless of the lens mount/design. So an APS-C 10mm lens and this VC M-mount 10mm lens will give identical AoV on an APSC sensor (about 112 degrees) but if you put them both on a m43 sensor they would give the same (but narrower) AoV, something a little less than 100 degrees. 

[Dippy]

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4 hours ago, Boojay said:

You have to tell me where I can see what you do with that combination, will be a treat I'm sure! 😀

 

I will post some up on Flickr and send you the link. But it might take a little time as I suspect it's going to take a bit of getting used too. I have a plan though 😎

[Dippy]

3 hours ago, ramarren said:

Thanks for the compliment! 

I'll be interested to see how it performs with the A7rII. When I had the A7, I was very unhappy with the performance of most M-mount lenses under 50mm focal length. 

Well the new (used) camera arrived today and it's a big beast. I wont love it like I love the CL but it's there for the specific job of taking this lens. What convinced me to try it was this....

https://www.albertdros.com/single-post/2019/04/06/Shooting-with-10mm-Fullframe

[ramarren]

Well, I didn't see any V10 photos on his site. Most of the photos I saw were with the Laowa 10-18mm zoom, which I know nothing about. 

I can use the V10 on my Leica M-D typ 262 easily if I want to play with its FF capabilities. It performs very well; the test photos don't seem as distorted as the Laowa images do. The corner falloff is much more severe when you go to FF, which the lens correction profile provided by Adobe with LR 6.14 helps to mitigate. 

Of course, in general I'm not one that pushes the colors and dynamics of my photos to such extremes. I have a different aesthetic in mind.

I remain interested to see the results that you produce with the V10 on your Sony A7II. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ramarren

[meerec]

3 minutes ago, ramarren said:

can use the V10 on my Leica M-D typ 262 easily if I want to play with its FF capabilities. It performs very well; the test photos don't seem as distorted as the Laowa images do. The corner falloff is much more severe when you go to FF, which the lens correction profile provided by Adobe with LR 6.14 helps to mitigate. 

The corner falloff may depend on the camera body. I shot a lot with this Voigtlander 10 on my Leica SL in Iceland earlier this year. The results were very satisfying [to me]. Here’s my recent post to the other board : the first two images are with V 10, the third one is the Leica SVE 16-35 zoom  

 

 

[bags27]

for the purposes of comparison, I put my Tokina 11-16 f/2.8 Nikon (I got it very cheaply on ebay) onto the CL with Novaflex adaptor (which is cool the way you change aperture). Here are a couple of quick photos, barely touched in post. Both were shot at 11 mm. I think it's "sharp enough" but doesn't seem to have quite the character of the  Voightla"nder. Trees in the 2nd photo are purplish and could easily be corrected.

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Edited July 4, 2019 by bags27

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, meerec said:

The corner falloff may depend on the camera body. I shot a lot with this Voigtlander 10 on my Leica SL in Iceland earlier this year. The results were very satisfying [to me]. Here’s my recent post to the other board : the first two images are with V 10, the third one is the Leica SVE 16-35 zoom  

 

 

This is what I see with the V10 fitted to the M-D. No corrections on the first row, Adobe/Lightroom lens corrections applied below. 

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All of these at ISO 200 on tripod, with auto exposure and EV compensation of +1.3 stops due to the white wall. Seems perfectly acceptable for such an extreme focal length, to me, but there is a good bit of correctable falloff. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by ramarren

[Dave in Wales]

I'm very grateful to Ramarren for his patience and kindness in producing the examples that I requested.

Playing around with FoV tables I have found an alternative set of examples.

FoV tables.........https://www.nikonians.org/reviews/fov-tables....tell me that the FoV for an 18mm on a CL, DX format, is 76 degrees and that a 10mm is 109.20 degrees.

Using.....https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/simulator/ just move the slider from form 76 to 109 degrees to see the difference in FoV. Don't worry about setting FX or DX just use the FoV angle.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the flack 

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, Dave in Wales said:

I'm very grateful to Ramarren for his patience and kindness in producing the examples that I requested.

Playing around with FoV tables I have found an alternative set of examples.

FoV tables.........https://www.nikonians.org/reviews/fov-tables....tell me that the FoV for an 18mm on a CL, DX format, is 76 degrees and that a 10mm is 109.20 degrees.

Using.....https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/simulator/ just move the slider from form 76 to 109 degrees to see the difference in FoV. Don't worry about setting FX or DX just use the FoV angle.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the flack 

I used this field of view calculator in my earlier response to you: http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/photos/angles.html

Notice that the FULL FRAME APS-C stats I reported are the same as what you got out of the Nikon calculator. Salguiero's calculator has a lot more features but isn't as graphically oriented, and allowed me to also create the listing for these lenses fitted to SQUARE APS-C format.

[ramarren]

Yes, from yet another cycle ride...

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Leica CL + Voigtländer 10mm f/5.6
ISO 640 @ f/8 @ 1/15

enjoy!
G

[Dippy]

On 7/4/2019 at 12:12 AM, ramarren said:

Well, I didn't see any V10 photos on his site. Most of the photos I saw were with the Laowa 10-18mm zoom, which I know nothing about. 

I can use the V10 on my Leica M-D typ 262 easily if I want to play with its FF capabilities. It performs very well; the test photos don't seem as distorted as the Laowa images do. The corner falloff is much more severe when you go to FF, which the lens correction profile provided by Adobe with LR 6.14 helps to mitigate. 

Of course, in general I'm not one that pushes the colors and dynamics of my photos to such extremes. I have a different aesthetic in mind.

I remain interested to see the results that you produce with the V10 on your Sony A7II. 

I'm most interested in the composition opportunities at that focal length - that's what I was looking at on that link.  Naturally, the PP is to his taste. The A7rii has arrived but I've had no time yet to do anything other than turn it on! It's certainly a big and heavy beast.....

[ramarren]

Another cafe stop... I was sitting outside. These two young men arrived and took the table next to me. Their behaviors were so disparate in the ten-twenty minutes I was sitting there having lunch and watching them it was almost enough to make me laugh. 

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Leica CL + Voigtländer 10mm f/5.6
ISO 400 @ f/8 @ 1/50

A few others of their friends arrived a few moments before I departed, and I noted that their behaviors normalized. I nodded to them, just kind of saying goodbye, as I left. The one on the left barely noticed, the one on the right gave me a smile and a little hand gesture to say, 'thanks, see ya.' 

Ah, communications in the modern age...

onwards,
G

[ramarren]

Out for my bicycle ride on Tuesday, doing a slightly different take on my loop at a different point in the day than usual, I came through the edge of the University, rounded the bend, and my eyes were blinded by the glowing red umbrellas at the local pizza parlor. I had to stop and photograph it, and then I had to figure out how to make the photo look like what blasted my retinas ...

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Leica CL + Voigtländer 10mm f/5.6
ISO 100 @ f/8 @ 1/80

enjoy!

[ramarren]

The ultrawide FoV gives such a different feel to scenes I've made photos of so many times before...! 

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Leica CL + Voigtländer 10mm f/5.6
ISO 3200 @ f/8 @ 1/30

Enjoy!
G
 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Dippy]

On 7/3/2019 at 5:52 PM, Boojay said:

You have to tell me where I can see what you do with that combination, will be a treat I'm sure! 😀

 

 

On 7/3/2019 at 6:32 PM, ramarren said:

Thanks for the compliment! 

I'll be interested to see how it performs with the A7rII. When I had the A7, I was very unhappy with the performance of most M-mount lenses under 50mm focal length. 

The A7 is a horrible camera to handle but for some subjects the combination of this and the 10mm looks interesting to my eye. I've only had time for a couple of afternoons out with the combo so still working out how to handle that UW FoV. Corner stretching is awful, as you said, but it is what it is and there is no point moaning. Here's a link to Dropbox and 17 images if you want to see https://www.dropbox.com/sh/66722v0q3q4b7nq/AAD0KAfssHYVW6pUvUe9whLTa?dl=0 They are all full size JPGs so you'll be able to see the dimensions of individual shots. Some cropped more than others for composition of the final image but none is excessively cropped. There's nothing Leica in sight so I wont be posting any of them here. 😁

The A7 certainly wont be replacing my CL which I love and appreciate even more now.