Maximum Auto ISO vs Maximum Exposure Time???

[Redridge]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

You are slowly starting to make sense, to some. There is an obvious, real practical value to your logic which most people here seem to fail to grasp. And the only reason can be that their shooting style is different. The way Auto ISO and Auto shutter speed is implemented now, means loss of control over getting a sharp image in A Mode for you. Others just shoot in manual mode and don’t see what your problem is, especially if the light doesn’t change constantly. 

I agree with you BTW. The ‘bug’ could be a remnant in the mindset of Leica engineers rooted in the M 240 sensor experience where recovery of shadow detail resulted in banding. So, they took away control from the user. I don’t understand why they don’t change now the way Auto shutter speed works. With the M10 files, I’d much rather have an underexposed sharp image than a well exposed blurry one. They are so malleable.

Thank You, The reason why I shoot M is because of the scale on the lense. Zone and hyperfocal is what the M is all about. If you set these correctly the focus is already set, an expensive point and shoot. It is not unreasonable to have control over minimum shutter speed. If you look at my post#9, where I suggest having an AUTO Shutter Speed. This option will keep the shutter functioning the way it is currently and people will keep it there and not even put it in their favorite screen. I for one will keep the AUTO/Minimum shutter speed as well as Auto ISO up front in my favorite screen. Minimum Shutter Speed is just as important as Max ISO... it keeps the user in check on how they want the image to look.

[M11 for me]

To your point about ISO-less: The M10 sensor is to a degree. I love how it is. I agree with you when you say that you prefer adjusting exposure of underexposed shot in post rather than having to deal with blown highlights. That is my experience as well I always make sure that the clouds are not blown out. The underexposure I can fix in LR. What I do NOT know is if I loose dynamic range by doing what I do. But I do not mind too much about that technical limitation that might occur. I realize as well that colors in an „underexposed“ picture might be better or nicer than in a higher exposed one even when nothing is blown out.. 

[tom.w.bn]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Redridge:

Where in a dslr AUTO ISO setting have in a sub "menu maximum exposure time" like the m10 have? AUTO ISO in a dslr is simply that... an ISO function.

Canon 5D IV has it, Nikon D850 has it, look in the manuals. The interesting thing is, that Leica uses the term "maximum exposure time" while Canon and Nikon use "minimum exposure time" but they mean absolutely the same if you read the manuals.  

[jaapv]

The whole discussion ignores that an M camera is basically a manual camera with a couple of  A functions added, and will always have a preset aperture..
Another confusion created in this thread is the mixing up of out-of-focus and unsharp through focus blur, two quite different things.

From time immemorial Leica M shooters combated motion blur by shooting technique. There have been plenty of posts here by users describing how to get sharp images @ 1/10th or slower shutter speeds. Trying to shoot such a camera like a (D)SLR has always led to people running into the conceptual limits of the system.

I'm sure that a Leica designer will react the same way that some of the contributors in this thread do: "shutter speed? - that is what the shutter speed dial is for..." 

 

[evikne]

I've always thought all kinds of Auto exposure is unnecessarily complicated and confusing. After all it's all about setting a proper aperture, ISO and exposure time. It's much faster, easier and more reliable to simply set them manually where I want. When shooting manually you just have to deal with the incident light, which is far more straightforward than the camera's measuring of reflected light.

[M11 for me]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Redridge:

Thank You, The reason why I shoot M is because of the scale on the lense. Zone and hyperfocal is what the M is all about. If you set these correctly the focus is already set, an expensive point and shoot. It is not unreasonable to have control over minimum shutter speed. If you look at my post#9, where I suggest having an AUTO Shutter Speed. This option will keep the shutter functioning the way it is currently and people will keep it there and not even put it in their favorite screen. I for one will keep the AUTO/Minimum shutter speed as well as Auto ISO up front in my favorite screen. Minimum Shutter Speed is just as important as Max ISO... it keeps the user in check on how they want the image to look.

But when you talk about zone focussing this can only be done with closed down lens with good light. With low light and wide open you can not have sharp shots with zone focussing.

[Redridge]

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8 minutes ago, M10 for me said:

But when you talk about zone focussing this can only be done with closed down lens with good light. With low light and wide open you can not have sharp shots with zone focussing.

I dont shoot wide open with zone focusing... again the files on the m10 are really that good. It may look way underexposed in the camera screen but the dng files are very flexible pulling details from the shadows. So yeah you can zone focus in bad lighting conditions.   

[jaapv]

If stopping down zone and hyperfocal  (mis)focusing are what the M is about, why did Leica provide a rangefinder? They could just as well have engraved three symbols on the lenses: mountain, stick-man group and flower...🙄 The kind of photographs taken with a stopped down lens and zone focusing can be taken with any camera in the world, often better than with an M.

The M is all about getting correct focus fast and precisely with maximum control, and Peter Karbe has stated repeatedly that Leica lenses were meant to be used wide open.

[M11 for me]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb tom.w.bn:

Canon 5D IV has it, Nikon D850 has it, look in the manuals. The interesting thing is, that Leica uses the term "maximum exposure time" while Canon and Nikon use "minimum exposure time" but they mean absolutely the same if you read the manuals.  

When I do reportage work this is most time inside and I cannot use the flash. Then I never use the M10 as main camera. I might have it around my shoulder for specific shots. But the main camera is 5D MkIV. And still I have to be aware what the camera does in what situation and when change the settings (Auto ISO or change from Aperture to Exposure priority Av or Tv). Still the options on such a workhorse are fabulous. Further I use such a cam mainly with 135mm f/2.0 which returns exquisite sharp images. As alternative I use 24-70mm f/2.8 and a fast 50mm. But what I use the M10 for its A modes are implemented in a good way for me. Most time I control all settings manually anyway.

Concerning the terms of maximum or minimum I prefer the logic of Leica. Even better would be the term longest time instead of maximum.

Edited June 15, 2019 by M10 for me
I use 24-70mm not 70-200 which I stopped using as it is much too heavy. I use the fast 135mm instead.

[Redridge]

24 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

Canon 5D IV has it, Nikon D850 has it, look in the manuals. The interesting thing is, that Leica uses the term "maximum exposure time" while Canon and Nikon use "minimum exposure time" but they mean absolutely the same if you read the manuals.  

Ok, Ill take your word on... I stand corrected. What they did get right is that they all have "minimum shutter speed".

[Redridge]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

If zone and hyperfocal  (mis)focusing are what the M is about, why did Leica provide a rangefinder? They could just as well have engraved three symbols on the lenses: mountain, stick-man group and flower...🙄

The M is all about getting correct focus fast and precisely with maximum control, and Peter Karbe has stated repeatedly that Leica lenses were meant to be used wide open.

Jaap, that is why the scale is there and todays modern lenses dont. Zone and hyperfocal is correct focus in street photography... you cant get any faster in taking an image. Just point and shoot. 

Leica 28mm summaron f5.6 can be shot wide open and be zone focused as well. All of the legendary street photographers has used zone/hyperfocal, you cant discount them because they dont shoot wide open @f1.4.

[jaapv]

That is what AF was designed for. The legendary guys had to use zone focus for lack of it.  I am sure HCB today would be using something like a Q or CL, if a Leica at all.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for using equipment outside its comfort zone just because I like doing so; after all, who would take a Leica M into the African bush but me? But I don't claim that that is the way it was designed to be used.

[Redridge]

not true... you cant zone/hyperfocal with AF. You have have to put it to MF in order to zone/hyperfocal.

[jaapv]

Exactly my point. You get proper focus instead of a guess by AF. Zone/hyperfocal is not an end in itself, getting the best possible focus in your shots is, and zone/hyperfocal is a crutch from the past when there were no better options.

[evikne]

2 hours ago, M10 for me said:

Concerning the terms of maximum or minimum I prefer the logic of Leica. Even better would be the term longest time instead of maximum.

If one wishes to be overparticular, the term "shutter speed" is quite pointless too. Because the shutter curtain moves at a fixed speed regardless of how long it is open to expose the image sensor. 🙂

Edited June 15, 2019 by evikne

[Redridge]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Exactly my point. You get proper focus instead of a guess by AF. Zone/hyperfocal is not an end in itself, getting the best possible focus in your shots is, and zone/hyperfocal is a crutch from the past when there were no better options.

I dont think zone/hyperfocal focusing is a crutch... its physics. Why bother having variable apertures then. Just create a pinhole in a lens and force everyone to shoot f1.4 and use shutter speed and ISO as the only way to adjust exposure.

I went through my phase of wide open shots and the pleasing bokeh and all... and yes I admire the way leica lense renders wide open. But, now Im finding out that there is more to it than just shooting wide open in photgraphy. Im taking more shots now than ever because Im shooting at f/8 and f/11 and Leica lens is THE BEST system because of the scales... and in my opinion, there still is no better options than using zone/hyperfocal focusing in street photography. Just my .02.

[jaapv]

It is only partly physics. DOF is mostly perception by the viewer.  After all, it is the zone of acceptable unsharpness on a given size of print. 

[mujk]

Auto ISO on my Canon 5DSR works in exactly the same way as the auto ISO on the M10. The setting is just different, i.e. the default slowest speed is 1/f and then you can tweak this in both directions. As an alternative, the slowest speed can be set to an absolute value. In both cases the camera overrides this setting if there is not enough light (i.e. uses a slower speed), in the same way as the M10 does. 

I very rarely use auto ISO on the 5DSR or the M9, but on the M10 I have for some reason found it quite useful.

[mikelevitt]

On 6/15/2019 at 12:39 AM, Redridge said:

of course, focus can be spot on but if the shutter is to slow handheld... guess what, blurry image, focus priority just went out the window. I guess Im done beating a dead horse. I see the M crowd is very set in their ways. Peace...

How do you get focus priority on a Leica M body?

one way to get sharp images is to have a minimum shutter speed... Of course on the M, you have to have correct focus AND a fast enough shutter speed for a sharp image.

 

On 6/15/2019 at 4:04 AM, Redridge said:

Ha now your getting technical... you are talking AF. M does not have AF. Focus Priority to me in the M10 is: Of course you have to focus your lens AND a fast enough shutter speed. A blurry image because of a slow shutter is out of focus... to me. Thats why Im proposing a minimum shutter speed should be added. This will ensure a fast enough shutter speed. 

 Camera shake has NOTHING to do with focus.

Edited July 4, 2019 by mikelevitt

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M