Maximum Auto ISO vs Maximum Exposure Time???

[pico]

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20 minutes ago, adan said:

set the max to 50000

I had never anticipated such ISO/ASA remotely possible when I was growing up in the film era. Today it boggles my mind, and some people complain that it not great enough?

Edited June 14, 2019 by pico

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb evikne:

If you will avoid a blurry image, you have to manually select a proper exposure time from the shutter speed dial. This will never be exceeded. Then you can either choose Auto ISO or a manual ISO. If either of these are too low, the image will be underexposed.

Or use A Mode with a tripod. 😁

[evikne]

3 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Or use A Mode with a tripod. 😁

Not always a good solution if you shoot moving subjects. 😁

[Redridge]

No, I never would want to shoot at iso 50000.... I think my point is being missed. Having a minimum shutter speed is an easy firmware upgrade...

[evikne]

As long as there is no chance for overexposed images, I can't see any practical difference between the method I mentioned (manually selected max shutter speed + Auto ISO) and the method you wish (Auto ISO + Auto shutter speed w/max limit). When it gets dark, you cannot change anything else than the ISO anyway; the shutter speed must stay at the maximum you can allow to avoid blur.

The only advantage I see with having both Auto ISO and Auto shutter speed, is that you can go from dark to bright surroundings without having to switch over to Auto shutter speed (to avoid overexposed images).

Edited June 14, 2019 by evikne

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Redridge said:

Thank you adan...

I totally get it. In the dslr/mirrorless world they have a choice... when you press the shutter release, you can have exposure as priority or focus priority. They give the user the choice. Ive always used focus as priority. That is all Im saying... they should give the user a choice. 

On an M camera, focus is ALWAYS a priority - as it is set manually....🙄

[jdlaing]

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How do you get focus priority on a Leica M body?

[Redridge]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

On an M camera, focus is ALWAYS a priority - as it is set manually....🙄

of course, focus can be spot on but if the shutter is to slow handheld... guess what, blurry image, focus priority just went out the window. I guess Im done beating a dead horse. I see the M crowd is very set in their ways. Peace...

How do you get focus priority on a Leica M body?

one way to get sharp images is to have a minimum shutter speed... Of course on the M, you have to have correct focus AND a fast enough shutter speed for a sharp image.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Redridge

[Redridge]

6 hours ago, evikne said:

As long as there is no chance for overexposed images, I can't see any practical difference between the method I mentioned (manually selected max shutter speed + Auto ISO) and the method you wish (Auto ISO + Auto shutter speed w/max limit). When it gets dark, you cannot change anything else than the ISO anyway; the shutter speed must stay at the maximum you can allow to avoid blur.

.

Ive never said AUTO shutter speed with a max limit... Ive always said Auto shutter speed with a minimum limit. The shutter speed can not be slower that that minimum value. The difference is when you manually select a shutter speed it stays there... if the max iso is reached and if there is not enough light, the m10 forces the shutter go to a slower speed using its full range down to 8s if need be. Having a Minimum Shutter speed controls the threshold of the shutter speed. For street photography, zone focusing is set so no need to focus through the viewfinder, you dont see what the exposure values are. Also, shooting from the hip is common... how do you ensure correct exposure? By using Auto Max ISO and a Minimum Shutter speed. This will control the amount of ISO you want to use and control the minimum speed to ensure the image is sharp enough.

The only advantage I see with having both Auto ISO and Auto shutter speed, is that you can go from dark to bright surroundings without having to switch over to Auto shutter speed (to avoid overexposed images).

There is no switch over, the AUTO ISO and AUTO Shutter work together. If you have an Auto Shutter minimum value, the shutter can't be slower than that value. For street photography I know I can have a sharp image at 1/250 maybe 1/125.... if you set the Auto minimum value at 1/125... the shutter can no longer be slower than that. If the image is still underexposed then I have to increase the Auto max ISO value. This way I can control the minimum shutter speed and maximum ISO to control exposure and sharpness at the same time.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Redridge

[Chaemono]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Redridge:

For street photography I know I can have a sharp image at 1/250 maybe 1/125.... if you set the Auto minimum value at 1/125... the shutter can no longer be slower than that. If the image is still underexposed then I have to increase the Auto max ISO value. This way I can control the minimum shutter speed and maximum ISO to control exposure and sharpness at the same time.

You are slowly starting to make sense, to some. There is an obvious, real practical value to your logic which most people here seem to fail to grasp. And the only reason can be that their shooting style is different. The way Auto ISO and Auto shutter speed is implemented now, means loss of control over getting a sharp image in A Mode for you. Others just shoot in manual mode and don’t see what your problem is, especially if the light doesn’t change constantly. 

I agree with you BTW. The ‘bug’ could be a remnant in the mindset of Leica engineers rooted in the M 240 sensor experience where recovery of shadow detail resulted in banding. So, they took away control from the user. I don’t understand why they don’t change now the way Auto shutter speed works. With the M10 files, I’d much rather have an underexposed sharp image than a well exposed blurry one. They are so malleable.

[evikne]

1 hour ago, Redridge said:

Ive never said AUTO shutter speed with a max limit... Ive always said Auto shutter speed with a minimum limit. 

Sorry for the confusion. We do of course mean the same thing. I was thinking about “maximum exposure time”, but I wrote “maximum shutter speed”, which means exactly the opposite. 😆

[Michel Ruck]

40 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

With the M10 files, I’d much rather have an underexposed sharp image than a well exposed blurry one.

With ISO 50.000 you don't have the freedom to push in post. You can maybe go +1, but not +2 EV. So a right exposure is a must have.

If your pictures a blurry: Go ISO 50.000 or maybe ISO 25.000.

And by the way: The exposure time is the only information in the viewfinder. Check this before you take the first picture and you know what is going on.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Michel Ruck

[M11 for me]

I just checked in mine. After all there is an optical indication (arrow pointing to the right) that tell you that the exposure is not as set any more. On the other hand you claim above that you might take shots without looking through the viewfinder (street). In that case of course you get no indication.

[tom.w.bn]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Redridge:

thats what the max iso setting is for... The DSLR guys have it right. Auto ISO is Auto ISO.... why control it with shutter speed. Let the user decide how the exposure is set via ISO or Shutter.

Why do you say the DSLR guys have it right? Auto ISO in Canon and Nikon DSLRs work exactly that way the M10 does.

[tom.w.bn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Redridge:

How do you get focus priority on a Leica M body?

Shutter priority means that if you press the shutter but the AF is still working, the camera takes the shot anyway. The result can be an out of focus image.

Focus priority means that if you press the shutter but the AF is still working, nothing happens until AF is ready. The result is an in focus image. If your shutter speed is too low, then you will get a blurry image because focus priority does not adjust shutter speed. Never. 

[Redridge]

30 minutes ago, Michel Ruck said:

With ISO 50.000 you don't have the freedom to push in post. You can maybe go +1, but not +2 EV. So a right exposure is a must have.

If your pictures a blurry: Go ISO 50.000 or maybe ISO 25.000.

And by the way: The exposure time is the only information in the viewfinder. Check this before you take the first picture and you know what is going on.

Im never or rarely at this extreme, the scenerios I talk about only happens at thresholds where the setting AUTO ISO MAX is reached. So this can be a value of 6400 or 8000 or whatever you put in the menu that you think what ISO is acceptable to you look wise, 25000 or 50000 is not accepetable to me. Again, I would much rather have an under exposed image than a blurry one. In fact the m10 purposely under exposes... the raw files is is really good at pulling the shadows/blacks.

[Redridge]

43 minutes ago, M10 for me said:

I just checked in mine. After all there is an optical indication (arrow pointing to the right) that tell you that the exposure is not as set any more. On the other hand you claim above that you might take shots without looking through the viewfinder (street). In that case of course you get no indication.

correct there are plenty of times I do not use a viewfinder... and yes I do crop. Here is some samples of my street photogs https://www.instagram.com/ferdinand.jimenez/?hl=en

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Redridge

[Chaemono]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb Michel Ruck:

With ISO 50.000 you don't have the freedom to push in post. You can maybe go +1, but not +2 EV. So a right exposure is a must have.

If your pictures a blurry: Go ISO 50.000 or maybe ISO 25.000.

And by the way: The exposure time is the only information in the viewfinder. Check this before you take the first picture and you know what is going on.

Thanks. In theory, this is the correct answer. But depending on the scene, it’s sometimes better to shoot at lower ISO and underexpose by not using shutter speed slower than 1/focal. Lower ISO captures Highlights more cleanly.  I prefer to deal with noise than with clipped Highlights. 

I’m quoting from Jim’s post in the link below:

“Assuming you're shooting RAW and depending on the nature of your camera's sensor, e.g., Sony/Nikon vs. Canon, and the characteristics of the scene you are shooting, sometimes it's better to get it right in camera by increasing ISO, sometimes it's better to increase brightness in post (called exposure in PS/LR) even if your in camera shot is technically under exposed. And sometimes it doesn't matter.”

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3794936

I’m not sure the M10 sensor is ISO-less. 

[Redridge]

24 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

Why do you say the DSLR guys have it right? Auto ISO in Canon and Nikon DSLRs work exactly that way the M10 does.

Where in a dslr AUTO ISO setting have in a sub "menu maximum exposure time" like the m10 have? AUTO ISO in a dslr is simply that... an ISO function.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Redridge]

11 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

Shutter priority means that if you press the shutter but the AF is still working, the camera takes the shot anyway. The result can be an out of focus image.

Focus priority means that if you press the shutter but the AF is still working, nothing happens until AF is ready. The result is an in focus image. If your shutter speed is too low, then you will get a blurry image because focus priority does not adjust shutter speed. Never. 

Ha now your getting technical... you are talking AF. M does not have AF. Focus Priority to me in the M10 is: Of course you have to focus your lens AND a fast enough shutter speed. A blurry image because of a slow shutter is out of focus... to me. Thats why Im proposing a minimum shutter speed should be added. This will ensure a fast enough shutter speed.