Maximum Auto ISO vs Maximum Exposure Time???

[Redridge]

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Im a bit confused with this setup in the menu. The Max Auto ISO is straight forward (once the max ISO is reached it wont go any higher) but Max Exposure Time via  focal length or longest shutter speed setting, what is this? No clue how the focal length plays a part on shutter speed. If I choose 1/125 in the menu, the m10 can still shoot 1/30 if it needs to. How is this setting max exposure time?

Here is what the manual says: "In the sub-menu, with the selected highest sensitivity, specify the range within which automatic setting is to work. In the sub-menu you can either leave it to the camera to ensure camera shake-proof shutter speeds - with one of the three focal length-specific settings 1/f, 1/[2f], 1/[4f]or specify the longest shutter speed yourself between 1/2s and 1/500s In the focal length-specific settings, the camera only switches to a higher sensitivity if the shutter speed would fall below the threshold due to low brightness, e.g. with a 50mm lens at speeds slower than 1⁄60s at 1/f or 1⁄125s at 1/[2f], or 1⁄250s at 1/[4f]."

Thank You in advance.

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Redridge

[hteasley]

There's a traditional guideline that says "Don't shoot handheld slower than 1/focal length." So with a 50mm, don't shoot with a shutter slower than 1/50th. With a 100mm lens, don't shoot slower than 1/100th. It's a guideline meant to minimize you hurting your shot with blur from your unsteady hands.

If the M10 can detect your lens via the 6-bit coding, it can enforce that guideline when you're shooting auto-shutter. If you're setting your shutter, that menu option is ignored.

[M11 for me]

Well explained. You can add that in the menu you can then set as well 1/2*focal lenght. This you might use in case of moving subjects.

On the other hand this is mainly important if you use zoom lenses, what you probably will not do with the M10. Lets take a Canon/Nikon with a 70-200mm Zoom then it helps when you set your camera to 1/focal length or 1/2*fl or even 1/3*fl as with the zoom lens the focal length changes constantly and the camera „knows“ the set focal lngth and can change the exposure time accordingly. As a matter of fact I personally use this a lot when using Canon shooting at an event.

Edited June 14, 2019 by M10 for me

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Redridge:

Im a bit confused with this setup in the menu. The Max Auto ISO is straight forward (once the max ISO is reached it wont go any higher) but Max Exposure Time via  focal length or longest shutter speed setting, what is this? No clue how the focal length plays a part on shutter speed. If I choose 1/125 in the menu, the m10 can still shoot 1/30 if it needs to. How is this setting max exposure time?

Thank You in advance.

His point is, the M10 still chooses whatever shutter speed it needs to even if one chooses Max Exposure Time 1/focal length! 

Thanks for your question. Perhaps Andy can explain it.

[Redridge]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

His point is, the M10 still chooses whatever shutter speed it needs to even if one chooses Max Exposure Time 1/focal length! 

Thanks for your question. Perhaps Andy can explain it.

Thank You for the response guys.... and maybe gals. 

Exactly!, the option might as well not exist if it ignores Max Exposure Time. When I was shooting in the streets, I set the max exposure time to 1/125s and max ISO at 8000.  I took a shot and saw the iso maxed at 8000 (normal) and shutter speed was 1/90s. I was expecting to see a somewhat dark image but the m10 ignored the max exposure time and went beyond it (correct exposure of course). But now, I have no control of exposure.... is this a bug?

[Chaemono]

Either a bug, AI (😉), or some wrong settings on our part. 

[Guest]

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It’s not a bug; it’s meant to work like that on the M10, i.e. it gives priority to your max ISO selection and will drop the shutter speed to obtain what the meter considers to be a correct exposure.

I wish the CL worked the same way.

[evikne]

The Maximum Exposure Time is a sub-menu under the ISO Setup menu. It is not a standalone setting. It means it only takes affect when the camera is set to Auto ISO. If you manually choose an ISO value, the maximum exposure time settings will be ignored.

Edit:

I tested this now on my M10. The maximum exposure time also only work as expected if the Auto ISO value is high enough to ensure a properly exposed image. If it's too low, the maximum exposure time is overridden nevertheless. The camera simply refuses to make underexposed images in Auto mode. 🙂

Edited June 14, 2019 by evikne

[Redridge]

So the max exposure time is only a trigger to move the ISO value higher till the ISO max is reached. If it is still underexposed, the exposure time is lowered till the right exposure is reached. How is this ISO in auto when the m10 changes the shutter speed?

Its a funny way of doing it. You may think you have the sharp image, but now you have to zoom in on an image to see if it is blurry or not since you have a good exposure. So, you have to keep chimping (which I hate). I would much rather have an underexposed sharp image than a correct exposed, but blurry image. It easier to detect an underexposed image... its also easier to fix in post processing, blurry image... you cant fix that.

Maybe Leica needs to have a "Minimum Shutter Speed" in the menu working as "AUTO" or "VALUE" set by user. "AUTO" is how it is functioning currently and "VALUE" is when the shutter speed wont go below the user setpoint. "VALUE" will give an underexposure if the ISO MAX is reached. Therefore ISO MAX would need to be increased. I think the m10 ISO performance is pretty good, having control with minimum shutter as well as max ISO is nice to have.... or in my case a necessity.

[Michel Ruck]

16 minutes ago, Redridge said:

 I would much rather have an underexposed sharp image than a correct exposed, but blurry image.

 A picture with ISO 50.000 and two stops underexposed is absolutly useless!! a longer exposure time is the right way.

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Michel Ruck

[evikne]

21 minutes ago, Redridge said:

Its a funny way of doing it. You may think you have the sharp image, but now you have to zoom in on an image to see if it is blurry or not since you have a good exposure. So, you have to keep chimping (which I hate). I would much rather have an underexposed sharp image than a correct exposed, but blurry image. It easier to detect an underexposed image... its also easier to fix in post processing, blurry image... you cant fix that.

If you will avoid a blurry image, you have to manually select a proper exposure time from the shutter speed dial. This will never be exceeded. Then you can either choose Auto ISO or a manual ISO. If either of these are too low, the image will be underexposed.

[Redridge]

10 minutes ago, Michel Ruck said:

 A picture with ISO 50.000 and two stops underexposed is absolutly useless!! a longer exposure time is the right way.

 

thats what the max iso setting is for... The DSLR guys have it right. Auto ISO is Auto ISO.... why control it with shutter speed. Let the user decide how the exposure is set via ISO or Shutter.

[Redridge]

7 minutes ago, evikne said:

If you will avoid a blurry image, you have to manually select a proper exposure time from the shutter speed dial. This will never be exceeded. Then you can either choose Auto ISO or a manual ISO. If either of these are too low, the image will be underexposed.

Then you are no longer in auto mode.... the shutter remains fixed.

I do a lot of zone/hyperfocal focusing where I dont even look at the viewfinder and see if the exposure is correct... 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Redridge

[evikne]

17 minutes ago, Redridge said:

Then you are no longer in auto mode.... the shutter remains fixed.

Unfortunately the M10 doesn't have a maximum exposure time that works the way you want. But with a manually selected shutter time combined with Auto ISO, you still have an auto exposure that will ensure a properly exposed image (if the max Auto ISO is high enough).

Personally I never use any Auto settings at all, because I think fully manual operation is where an M really excels. 

[a.noctilux]

I agree that using Auto Iso all time is not for me when I use Leica M.

It's kind of emergency solution (Auto Iso in M 😵), so it's crude compared to other brands.

 

Other makers offer AF and all Auto with plenty of "auto choices" to do "perfect pictures of every photos" at less cost than Leica M 😇.

[Redridge]

Thank You all...

I guess its just me then. I guess small steps for the Leica M (which is frustrating and expensive). Its great that Leica minimizes the menu, but choices are good too. DSLR and Mirrorless cameras have had max iso and minimum shutter speed working together for years. Its just better exposure control for the user... maybe the M11 then... not.

[a.noctilux]

Minimalism of Leica M pleases some and even more minimalism in M-D 262 that I like most in digital M which I use to mimic film M

(  M10-D offers more possibilities, so less minimalism)

[Redridge]

Im all for minimalism... but I would rather shoot my M6 rather than mimic it. Leica is calling the M10 modern, I think they have a long ways to go still... don't get me wrong... I love the M10, but having a "max exposure time" setting under as a sub menu of "auto iso" is ridiculous (especially that it is ignored when auto iso max is reached). Let the user decide whether it should be ignored or not. 

[adan]

Bottom line - when you are getting a too-long shutter speed with Auto ISO, you are in light too dim for the choice you have set for max. ISO.

"Max. ISO 8000" was not high enough to shoot in that light - AND get a high shutter speed - AND avoid underexposure.

If you want the camera to use higher ISOs than 8000 (and thus higher shutter speeds) when required to stop action or avoid hand shake, set the max to 50000. The M10 will still avoid ISO 50000 unless it is absolutely required.

The M10 auto-iso logic is: "correct exposure is the first priority - the camera will not allow underexposure (or overexposure). The next priority is to make sure the shutter speed is appropriate for the lens - 1x, 2x, 4x the focal length, or a "hard" shutter speed of perhaps 1/250 or 1/500, as chosen by the user. The camera will then choose the ISO needed - up to the user's stated ISO limit. At which point, to comply with "the first directive" (exposure) the shutter speed will be lengthened".

When the light gets dim, something has to give. You seem want the M10 to foul up the exposure, which ultimately gives the same noisy cr*p as just setting the ISO limit higher, I'd prefer the M10 blow through my shutter-speed preference. Either one may result in a cr*p photo, but that's the deal in dim light.

As it happens, when I walk into a situation, I immediately get a fair idea of what the light will require as to ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. It ain't hard to figure out that "this is no situation for f/8 - if I want a high shutter speed." It's called "paying attention to the light."

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Redridge]

Thank you adan...

I totally get it. In the dslr/mirrorless world they have a choice... when you press the shutter release, you can have exposure as priority or focus priority. They give the user the choice. Ive always used focus as priority. That is all Im saying... they should give the user a choice.