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Overgaard's Angst about the S1R

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Starting around 8:00 and for the next couple of minutes, Overgaard expresses the discomfort many of us feel, as technology is overtaking craftsmanship, finding some consolation in artistry over precision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn8NojUS078

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3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

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Sorry, and odd. When I click on the link it goes right there. Perhaps search on YouTube for: "Thorsten von Overgaard Panasonic Lumix S1R Hands-On Review - Part 1: "Why it is, and how it is"

 

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Not that odd - Thorsten has disabled " Playing through a link from another website"

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It worked for  me.

Not sure about his question at t = 11:15. Having more/better perfection in the hardware doesn't preclude focussing on the composition, does it? He almost implies that it does but I get where he's coming from.

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Posted (edited)

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His discomfort is understandable, and the knowledge that there is ‘something much better’ out there (even if better only from a technical perspective) is often a frustration to photographers. For many Leica owners, there has always been a ‘I have the best I can get’ element to using the system (particularly the M) and the issues Overgaard raises forces Leica M owners to bite the pill of ‘not the best, but good enough for me’.  That’s easy for some, but not others.

Edited by kentishrev

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There's always been tempting alternatives to Leica. The introduction of the Nikon F SLR and then the industry's dSLR were existential threats as well . 

But the challenge today may be greater, because

1. digitalization creates short camera life cycles that benefit rapid response mass production companies

2. the creation of great glass is no longer just an art, but a technology as well that results in a leveling effect

2 .the mirrorless revolution has created a world of mix and match lenses, a reality Leica has conceded through the L consortium

4  the use of cell phone photography has dramatically shrunk the market for high end cameras generally, vastly diminishing profit margins and allowing safe harbor only for broadly diversified, deep pocket corporations .

None of which is to say that Leica corporation isn't thriving. It is opening so many boutiques and being so aggressive at marketing that it appears to be doing fine. Still...

 

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3 hours ago, bags27 said:

1. digitalization creates short camera life cycles that benefit rapid response mass production companies

2. the creation of great glass is no longer just an art, but a technology as well that results in a leveling effect

2 .the mirrorless revolution has created a world of mix and match lenses, a reality Leica has conceded through the L consortium

4  the use of cell phone photography has dramatically shrunk the market for high end cameras generally, vastly diminishing profit margins and allowing safe harbor only for broadly diversified, deep pocket corporations .

  1. That may have been true at first, but lifecycles have settled around 3-4 years now, which is roughly the time between sensor generations. Sony still releases a new model every 6 months, but that's a marketing thing. New Sony models tend to be similar to the model they replace, with a single feature added or removed.
  2. Glass is getting better, no doubt. Leica's advantage is that they can use more expensive materials and charge more. That was the essential takeaway I got from Lensrental's tear-down of the 90-280: it has more expensive glass and mechanical features than the competition, making it a less compromised design.
  3. That's probably true. The other way to look at it is: there was no long-term viability for the R mount, because it lacked scale. The L-mount may become popular enough to be self-sustaining.
  4. Cell phones have eroded camera sales from the bottom, not the top. Nobody uses a Kodak Instamatic or an Agfa Clack anymore, but the number of $2,000+ cameras has expanded at a rate greater than inflation. Same with high-end lenses.

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5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Leica M owners choose beauty over convenience. The M inspires. This won't change no matter how much technology advances. 

I agree, but there are many who are both inspired and content in the knowledge there is (was) no better lens out there.

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36 minutes ago, BernardC said:
  1.  
  2. Cell phones have eroded camera sales from the bottom, not the top. Nobody uses a Kodak Instamatic or an Agfa Clack anymore, but the number of $2,000+ cameras has expanded at a rate greater than inflation. Same with high-end lenses.

Shot with an Agfa Clac in 2019 🙂

o Pão de Azucar by JM__, on Flickr

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BernardC said:
  1. That may have been true at first, but lifecycles have settled around 3-4 years now, which is roughly the time between sensor generations. Sony still releases a new model every 6 months, but that's a marketing thing. New Sony models tend to be similar to the model they replace, with a single feature added or removed.
  2. Glass is getting better, no doubt. Leica's advantage is that they can use more expensive materials and charge more. That was the essential takeaway I got from Lensrental's tear-down of the 90-280: it has more expensive glass and mechanical features than the competition, making it a less compromised design.
  3. That's probably true. The other way to look at it is: there was no long-term viability for the R mount, because it lacked scale. The L-mount may become popular enough to be self-sustaining.
  4. Cell phones have eroded camera sales from the bottom, not the top. Nobody uses a Kodak Instamatic or an Agfa Clack anymore, but the number of $2,000+ cameras has expanded at a rate greater than inflation. Same with high-end lenses.

4. I think the numbers suggest high end sales are declining precipitously. https://fstoppers.com/gear/camera-shipments-down-35-percent-previous-year-250000-less-sales-356607. I think that's one reason why Leica has partnered with Hauwei, which are really incredible cameras.

3. Actually R mount sales has been revivified precisely because it is NOT autofocus and therefore usable cross platform. L mounts are heavier and more expensive and that is only worth it on L mount consortium. There is no cross platform applicability.

2. No disputing this, except there are M users on this very site who say that the Nikon kit lens (24-70) seems every bit as good as their Leica lenses. Is that technically true? Maybe not. But with the dedicated Nikon sensor it may produce as fine a photo. And Nikon can spin a new body/lens out every 18-24 months.

1. Right. It's a "marketing thing" -- as in increased sales. At one time FF mirrorless was pretty much Sony (and a little Leica). But no longer. The Nikon Z does great with M glass. I personally know of 3 heavy users who have gravitated from the Leica body to Nikon body with mixed Nikon/Leica glass.

I think we agree that current conditions are a challenge to Leica, but not an insuperable one. Leica has faced these before and has survived--though whether it would have without the intervention of the Kaufmann family is an open question.

 

 

Edited by bags27

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb bags27:

2. No disputing this, except there are M users on this very site who say that the Nikon kit lens (24-70) seems every bit as good as their Leica lenses. Is that technically true? Maybe not. But with the dedicated Nikon sensor it may produce as fine a photo.

Yes, it does at f/4 in combination with the Z7 sensor, Z6 has an OLPF and files look mushy, and the highly contrasty RAW files that Nikon throws out. If one raises the Clarity slider in LR enough, SL files with the VE-SL 24-90 can be made to look the same, to the detriment of the OOF areas, though. BTW, on the comparison with M lenses, f/4 isn’t why amateurs buy Leica to begin with. I haven’t checked for optical flaws in the Nikon kit lens, but I’m sure I can find them. 

Here’s a look at how the Nikon OOF areas look and below is an SL picture where the Clarity slider was cranked up all the way in LR to match: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Q4J9vG/

Needless to say, the edges in the OOF become much sharper. I prefer them smoother and then I can decide how contrasty I want them to look. With the Nikon, one has no choice, that’s the way the RAW files come out looking. I can post links to the RAW files and do some more side by side over/under comparisons (until the cows come home 😁). 

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On 6/12/2019 at 5:27 PM, BernardC said:
  1. That may have been true at first, but lifecycles have settled around 3-4 years now, which is roughly the time between sensor generations. Sony still releases a new model every 6 months, but that's a marketing thing. New Sony models tend to be similar to the model they replace, with a single feature added or removed.
  2. Glass is getting better, no doubt. Leica's advantage is that they can use more expensive materials and charge more. That was the essential takeaway I got from Lensrental's tear-down of the 90-280: it has more expensive glass and mechanical features than the competition, making it a less compromised design.
  3. That's probably true. The other way to look at it is: there was no long-term viability for the R mount, because it lacked scale. The L-mount may become popular enough to be self-sustaining.
  4. Cell phones have eroded camera sales from the bottom, not the top. Nobody uses a Kodak Instamatic or an Agfa Clack anymore, but the number of $2,000+ cameras has expanded at a rate greater than inflation. Same with high-end lenses.

Replying to your point 2.

Cost of material is minor part of the cost of the lens, there may be more expensive glass types but ultimately lens is the sum of al parts, optical, mechanical and electrical, plus quality contro and marketing on top.

And don’t mention mechanical quality of Leica S lenses to early adaptors, apparently focus motor gear failure came as standard.

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Posted (edited)

Personally, from my experience, the S1R + 75/2 SL produces images that are probably unsurpassed by any other FF system available today.

If you can combine that with vision, artistry and technical skill you have the potential of producing images which are as  good as anyone out there taking photographs in 2019.

The only issue with systems this good is that the person behind the viewfinder has no excuses and nowhere to hide when it comes to poor images. No amount of grumbling and moaning about the perfection of technology gets round the basic fact that the person pressing the shutter release is the main ingredient in producing great images. 🙄

 

Edited by thighslapper

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3 hours ago, mmradman said:

Cost of material is minor part of the cost of the lens, there may be more expensive glass types but ultimately lens is the sum of al parts, optical, mechanical and electrical, plus quality contro and marketing on top.

And don’t mention mechanical quality of Leica S lenses to early adaptors, apparently focus motor gear failure came as standard.

I am an S user, so I know all about those failures.  In spite of that (now resolved) issue, the glass is awesome. I'm sure that the grade of nylon that they used for that gear wasn't a cost issue. It was an unfortunate choice that they have since remedied.

I was thinking more of the statement that one specific element in the Summilux M 50 ASPH cost more than the entire bill of materials for the prior Summilux-M. Leica can afford to charge for that, and the extra assembly precision that comes with a high-performance optic, because their customers are willing to pay more.

It's an ageless debate. You'll always find someone to argue that paying more for lenses isn't "worth it," sometimes waving a resolution chart showing that a cheaper lens is just as sharp at a non-specified aperture and distance. Oddly, you'll pay a lot less for a 30-year-old Soligor, Tamron, or Tokina than you would for a Leica lens.

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In Ming's latest post, he announces he is gradually exiting photography and why. It is appropriate for this thread's discussion. Also quite interesting is that he is instead ramping up his watch making--which is a gesture that Leica, too, is making.

Many of you will have noticed that I am slowly winding down my photographic activities; there are several reasons for this. Firstly, the market is changing yet again – both for purely commercial work, for education, and also for the hardware side. It seems that the camera makers are content to continue driving themselves into a repetitive (and unprofitable in an oversaturated market) cycle. There is only so much ‘more’ people can use – and more importantly, justify paying for – without other investments in both ability/skill and UI etc. The writing has been on the wall for some time, but there are limits to what one person can do without resorting to being sensationalist – which I refuse to do. 

https://blog.mingthein.com/2019/06/13/off-topic-why-i-started-making-watches-i/#more-18381

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2 hours ago, bags27 said:

In Ming's latest post, he announces he is gradually exiting photography and why. It is appropriate for this thread's discussion. Also quite interesting is that he is instead ramping up his watch making--which is a gesture that Leica, too, is making.

Many of you will have noticed that I am slowly winding down my photographic activities; there are several reasons for this. Firstly, the market is changing yet again – both for purely commercial work, for education, and also for the hardware side. It seems that the camera makers are content to continue driving themselves into a repetitive (and unprofitable in an oversaturated market) cycle. There is only so much ‘more’ people can use – and more importantly, justify paying for – without other investments in both ability/skill and UI etc. 

Yes ........almost every review of cameras in the pro-amateur bracket should basically say they will produce images of a quality beyond the level that all but the most critical would require and have more features than you could ever possibly use...... and choice is entirely down to what you can afford and ergonomics.

Leica has the added advantage of aesthetics, novel design and exclusivity ...... which is probably going to prolong its life in the current great camera extinction event......

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30 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

Yes ........almost every review of cameras in the pro-amateur bracket should basically say they will produce images of a quality beyond the level that all but the most critical would require and have more features than you could ever possibly use...... and choice is entirely down to what you can afford and ergonomics.

Leica has the added advantage of aesthetics, novel design and exclusivity ...... which is probably going to prolong its life in the current great camera extinction event......

I agree. There will be islands of "endangered species" that will last and last, and Leica will be disproportionately represented. It will achieve some existential balance, just as records are still produced in limited numbers and there are exceptionally brilliant and wildly expensive turntables.

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