Oiling a MOOLY

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Benghi,

From the material that you have provided for us here, I think that everything should be pretty straight forward. Softening, shortening & then re-hardening hole end springs is a regular thing to do in situations where the otherwise appropriate spring is too long.

Best Regards,

Michael

[jc_braconi]

It is very easy to drill a hole in a spring

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[bengi]

I should have the new springs back within a week installed in the barrels. 

Its not as simple as drilling a hole unfortunately. Both ends of the spring are non standard so a little raised tab needs to be cut on the barrel attachment point and then tempered after that. And then where the arbor attaches is to two sharp 90 degree bends then a tempered section that slide into the arbor shaft to allow you to removed It for disassembly . 

 

[bengi]

New springs arrived and I installed them. Running into some issues. Due to the main drive spring already being broken when I dissembled the mechanism I’m not sure if the barrels are pre tensioned. I’m wondering this because the new springs are nearly identical to the old ones (the guy did a fantastic job) but it won’t power the mechanism fully unless  it’s wound until the counter is over 7. 

So i’m wondering if somehow the barrels are tensioned and fit into the mechanism while it’s at “zero” and then you’re getting more power early on. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by bengi

[bengi]

Still struggling with this. The new springs specs are identical and I can’t get it to power the mechanism when the counter is below 5. I feel like the first barrel must be pre tensioned a few turns but I really have no idea how to do it without a purpose built jig or locking system for assembly.  

Does anyone have some suggestions of a repair person familiar with the MOOLY who I could speak to about reassembly. Mechanically it’s functioning correctly and moving the shutter button and curtains when it’s fully wound. I have no idea since when I took it apart the main spring was already broken and spinning freely.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Bengi,

I don't know what the mechanism that you have looks like & I don't know what its parts individually look like so we have to do this step by step.

Sometimes in some spring powered mechanisms the mechanism is designed to run on a portion of the spring power that is released beginning when the spring is partially wound & stopping  (Usually) before the spring is entirely wound.

This can be done with a variety of mechanisms & is done for a variety of reasons.

Historically this was done because springs, mechanisms & lubricants from 100's of years ago did not have certain properties that their current equivalents do. And because sometimes mechanisms operated better when the minimum & maximum spring energy was bounded within a certain range.

Sometimes to do this the mechanism had certain parts that were constructed somewhat differently than might be expected in that mechanism.

More to follow.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 19, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Bengi,

I'm back.

Sometimes the system that I write from has "complexities" with longer Posts so I sometimes do them in pieces.

Look at all of the wheels & see if any of them have a tooth that is longer or shorter than the others. Also, look to see if any of the spaces between any of the wheels are not as deep as the rest. Let us know please.

Best Regards,

Michael

[bengi]

Here are some photos that I've marked with colors to highlight the different functions. I left off the operation of the worm gear that prevents backlash to the system but I don't think its important to the discussion. 

 

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[Nick_S]

6 hours ago, bengi said:

Here are some photos that I've marked with colors to highlight the different functions

Great use of colour to illustrate the functional relationships between the gears.

[bengi]

I managed to pre tension it by turning the key 4 times and popping the top off and resetting the counter to zero while holding the barrels with clamps. That allowed it to start cranking from 0 at about 30% power. It now will run down all the way without losing energy.

However it’s still not behaving correctly. Every 3 revolutions the shutter curtain stops halfway which makes zero sense to me. Possibly the friction clutch on the input shaft is binding but I’m not really sure how that would happen.

I’m really starting to to get tired of this thing. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the fundamentals of how it works and it just keeps getting worse. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Bengi,

Thank you for the nice photos.

It is hard to figure this out all assembled. 

Did you, by any chance, photographic each of the pieces before, while or after you disassembled it? It is OK if they are in a group together.

There might be some type of "stop works" involved. Altho there does not have to be. There is 1 tooth that is different in the photos of barrel #2.

I once had a motorized still camera that would not advance the film until the spring was wound a certain amount.

It may be that the mechanism requires a number of turns of the key to tension the spring to the point where the mechanism would begin to operate.

It would be good to ask someone who has an operating MOOLY if this is the situation.

I will keep looking at your photos & keep thinking about it.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 21, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[bengi]

The issue with the half winding the shutter was the clutch. It had some oil in between a few of the friction plates and was allowing it to turn when it shouldn't. When it would get halfway through a wind it would slip releasing tension on the input shaft and stopping the cycle. 

However the spring issue still persists. With the pre tension I can get 10 shots off but it winds slowly. I think its a quality difference of the older springs vs new ones. The originals appear to be purpose built on a machine exactly for this application whereas the new ones are cut and adapted off the shelf spring steel formed by hand. The guy who made me the springs is going to make two more slightly stronger and I'm going to install those and see if there's an improvement. 

Here's a video showing it completing 10 actuations. Overall I'm not satisfied yet but I feel fairly accomplished. Quite a complicated repair. 

https://i.imgur.com/kE52Lqu.mp4

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by bengi

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Bengi,

Sometimes, in the "old days" people made & did some things differently than might be considered the best way today.

Sometimes things done today's way are better.

And sometimes people in the "old days" knew what they were doing but did what they did for different reasons than people might today.

That is why, for example: We re-use old parts when possible. Both because many older parts used for a number of years are in better condition & have more service life left than their modern replacements do when they are brand new.

And also because sometimes the older parts were made using considerations that are not being thought about by people today. For a variety of reasons.

Interesting point: In many instances the ability to make a better replacement part today is clearly there. But also, in many instances, that is not done. For a variety of reasons.

You might consider putting back the original spring that is still functional & see if that makes a difference. Do you remember which barrel it was in? Sometimes that makes a difference.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 24, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Stacey]

Quite impressive repair

[derleicaman]

On 8/23/2019 at 1:06 PM, bengi said:

The issue with the half winding the shutter was the clutch. It had some oil in between a few of the friction plates and was allowing it to turn when it shouldn't. When it would get halfway through a wind it would slip releasing tension on the input shaft and stopping the cycle. 

However the spring issue still persists. With the pre tension I can get 10 shots off but it winds slowly. I think its a quality difference of the older springs vs new ones. The originals appear to be purpose built on a machine exactly for this application whereas the new ones are cut and adapted off the shelf spring steel formed by hand. The guy who made me the springs is going to make two more slightly stronger and I'm going to install those and see if there's an improvement. 

Here's a video showing it completing 10 actuations. Overall I'm not satisfied yet but I feel fairly accomplished. Quite a complicated repair. 

https://i.imgur.com/kE52Lqu.mp4

 

 

The MOOLY seems to be running pretty well and consistent for the ten releases you have shown in the video. I have two MOOLYs, one that runs well through the entire wind and it runs for all of the exposures, although it audibly slows down at the end of the advances stored by the spring. I hope I explained that where it made sense. The other one I have will cycle a couple of times and then stop. I'm sure its a question of cleaning old lube out and applying new lubrication. I don't think any of the springs are bad, but who knows. I have them both for over 25 years, and they have never been serviced. Perhaps next time I am in Germany, I will have Ottmar take a look at them. You are certainly very brave and doing well with your work on the MOOLY. It is certainly one of the most difficult Leica items to work on. I have enjoyed this thread and your work to no end!

[jc_braconi]

You made a lot of readers more admiring
Congratulations.