Oiling a MOOLY

[bengi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The other spring while dirty seems to be fine. However both should probably be replaced.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[wlaidlaw]

9 hours ago, bengi said:

I pressed ahead and completely disassembled the entire thing. The culprit is a broken main spring. Has anyone sourced a replacement? I'm assuming I will have to have it custom fabricated.

 

Google for replacement clock springs. I found about 5 companies in the UK alone. I believe Malcolm Taylor has ordered the ones for my two MOOLY's from Cousins, jewellers' supplies, in the UK. 

Wilson

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jerzy]

If you can source replacement springs then replace both. If not than the broken one can be repaired, shorten and a hole drilled. Drilling a hole in hardened spring is not easy, end of spring will need to be un- hartened. Good workmanshop could do it.

[bengi]

6 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Google for replacement clock springs. I found about 5 companies in the UK alone. I believe Malcolm Taylor has ordered the ones for my two MOOLY's from Cousins, jewellers' supplies, in the UK. 

Wilson

Waiting on some calipers to measure the thickness of the spring. The height is 15mm which seems to be fairly common so hopefully it’s easy to source. This project is getting so involved. I hope I can get it all back together again. I’m interested to see how fast it operates with new springs. 

I may email Malcom Taylor and ask him what springs he ordered.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Benghi,

You MAY be lucky that the broken spring is broken at the outside end. IF one of the reasons that the outside end is broken is a tear in the hole where the inside spring catches the hook then you will have to replace that spring.

If the inside hole & the hook it attaches to are OK, like it is in the other spring, then you can follow Jersy's advice & repair the old spring because, unfortunately, many modern replacement springs brand new are NOT the quality of older broken springs. For the same reason I would NOT replace the other spring. If it is NOT damaged to a point of unrepairability.

If you do this first you have to SOFTEN the end of the broken spring from where it is broken off to about 3 centimeters/1.5 inches down past where you want to drill the new hole.

Then file the end to the shape it should be & then drill the hole where it should be. Using the broken piece as a guide.

Then you have to PROPERLY re-harden the repaired portion. Making sure to harden the repair all of the way where it has been softened.

Replacing clock springs require that you also know the Thickness of the spring along with the length & the width. If you cannot get the exact replacement:  It is usually better if it is a little bit longer & a little bit thinner. Not shorter & thicker.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited July 9, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[wlaidlaw]

Malcolm does not do email. I don't know if he has actually ordered those springs yet. Certainly my very poor single speed MOOLY will need them but the last time I spoke to him in April, he had not started on the "good" 2 speed MOOLY as yet. Malcolm works at his own pace. I sent him the two cameras, a IIIa with 2 speed MOOLY, a 250FF Reporter plus another MOOLY in poor condition and a SCNOO rapid winder which was almost as bad, all in early December last year. As of April, he had stripped the bad MOOLY and the SCNOO and had had a quick look at the 250FF but that is all. However as he is the only really experienced repairer of the 250 Reporter cameras who has an inventory of spare parts for them, that is something you have to live with. I have an M3, M4-P and M4-2 winder which have been away even longer with another repairer. 

Wilson

[TomB_tx]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

25 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

 I have an M3, M4-P and M4-2 winder which have been away even longer with another repairer. 

Wilson

My record is 3 years for a Canon ltm to return from a lesser-know US tech, but it was very well restored, not just repaired.

I’ve been on a Contax wait list for a couple years for permission to send the camera in for work. Looking at the number ahead of me on the list, I doubt if it will happen in my lifetime.

Good camera techs often have unique calendars.

[wlaidlaw]

I don't see why modern clock springs should not be at least the equal of old springs. Other than Chinese steel which has a very poor reputation due to high inclusion content from inadequate melting, puddling and slagging of raw material with a high scrap content (to save energy costs). The original chassis on my 2012 Morgan Three Wheeler was I understand made from cheap Chinese steel tubing. It suffered one total corrosion fatigue failure and had cracks elsewhere. The whole chassis had to be replaced. The quality control on European and US high carbon alloy steels for things like clock springs is way more advanced than that it used to be, with metallurgical  tools like mass spectrometry, enabling an exact elemental analysis of the steel at the melt stage. I feel there is an element of "fings ain't like what they use'ter be" but I think that quality steels are better than ever. I would think that suppliers like Cousins, would buy their springs from the best quality rather than best price supplier. 

Wilson

[bengi]

Some mainspring information for anyone trying to do this in the future. 

The thickness of the old spring is .30mm thick with a height of 15mm. The inner diameter of the barrel is 24mm. I laid the spring flat under some weights and measured the length which is 838.2mm (33 inches). Both springs are identical. 

Timesavers has mainsprings in 15.0 x 0.30 x 1346mm (52.9 inches) Too big. So if I take Michaels advice and go a little big longer and thinner the next closest size would be 14.3 x 0.28 x 991mm (39 inches). at a cost of only 8 dollars. I think I'll order a couple and give it a shot. I think replacing both springs entirely is the way to go. These both seem very tired and have a considerable amount of rust on them. I hate to replace one and have the other snap down the road. 

 

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, bengi said:

Some mainspring information for anyone trying to do this in the future. 

The thickness of the old spring is .30mm thick with a height of 15mm. The inner diameter of the barrel is 24mm. I laid the spring flat under some weights and measured the length which is 838.2mm (33 inches). Both springs are identical. 

Timesavers has mainsprings in 15.0 x 0.30 x 1346mm (52.9 inches) Too big. So if I take Michaels advice and go a little big longer and thinner the next closest size would be 14.3 x 0.28 x 991mm (39 inches). at a cost of only 8 dollars. I think I'll order a couple and give it a shot. I think replacing both springs entirely is the way to go. These both seem very tired and have a considerable amount of rust on them. I hate to replace one and have the other snap down the road. 

 

A word of warning. Softening and re-tempering spring steel to cut holes and tabs is not easy. Many years ago we had a lovely elderly man as a next door neighbour, who repaired lawnmowers. He had at one time in the early 1950's, owned a Bentley and Rolls Royce dealership but had fallen on hard times. When we first knew him in the 1960's, he lived in a caravan in the woods. However he had been, between the mid 1920's and the end of WW2, in the REME (Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) and was a wonderful craftsman. He showed me how to soften, repair and then re-temper springs in for example, mower recoil starters. Even though I am a pretty fair engineer and used to service and rebuild the Formula 2 and Formula 3000 cars I used for the European Hillclimb Championship, including their engines and gearboxes, I found getting springs dead right was very difficult and would take a lot of practice plus an oxy-acetylene or oxy-propane welding set for very controlled heat. 

I really would leave the repair or refashioning of the ends or fastenings on a coil spring to an expert or you could damage your existing springs and/or ruin the new ones. 

Wilson

[Michael Geschlecht]

3 hours ago, bengi said:

Some mainspring information for anyone trying to do this in the future. 

The thickness of the old spring is .30mm thick with a height of 15mm. The inner diameter of the barrel is 24mm. I laid the spring flat under some weights and measured the length which is 838.2mm (33 inches). Both springs are identical. 

Timesavers has mainsprings in 15.0 x 0.30 x 1346mm (52.9 inches) Too big. So if I take Michaels advice and go a little big longer and thinner the next closest size would be 14.3 x 0.28 x 991mm (39 inches). at a cost of only 8 dollars. I think I'll order a couple and give it a shot. I think replacing both springs entirely is the way to go. These both seem very tired and have a considerable amount of rust on them. I hate to replace one and have the other snap down the road. 

 

Hello Bengi,

It is good to get a spring that is as close as possible to the width of the original spring. This may be more important than precisely matching the length or the thickness. There are many different clock springs to choose from at a supplier for people who repair old clocks.

In the future, I would think that flattening an entire spring, if there is a reasonable degree of resistance, might not be the best way to measure.

You might try tying a string to the inside hole & then winding it around the outside of the spring to the end & then measuring the string.

If the spring is not too stiff: That might be an indicator that the spring was meant to be not too stiff.

1 reason that the M3, M2, etc have such reliable shutters is that they are big, overbuilt, slow moving mechanisms powered by overly large springs which Leitz designed the cameras to only use the middle 1/3 or so of the power from. Which is 1 of the reasons that you can put the camera away with the shutter cocked after Christmas, take pictures at the beach during the following summer & then have the roll processed.

Meaning: Maybe the springs were meant to not be that stiff. You should ask someone who knows.

More to follow.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Bengi & Hello Wilson,

While it is certainly true that a person can make a better spring for significantly less money today than was possible a while back: For the most part we have found that even though it was more difficult & more expensive to make an equivalent spring in the past: Most old springs that we come across for clocks were better made in the past than they are today. Often even when repairing a broken spring similar to this 1.

A good quality English 8 day weight driven Tall Case clock from the middle to late 1700's was designed to give the buyer about 1,000 (Yes) years of perfectly fine service with just the equivalent of today's changing  of the oil & the spark plugs in a car. With a few small adjustments that go along with it. In terms of the clock today that means service every 20 to 50 years. With some possible minor adjustment on an infrequent basis in between. Or possibly none.

With another 1,000 years (Yes) that might require a little more frequent service. And some work.

After that the clock would probably still be usable but it might require more care & attention. It is unclear as to the specifics.

Bracket Clocks (Spring driven.) from the same time period might have 1/2 or less of the life for the springs. The rest of the mechanism should last as well & as long as a weight driven clock mechanism.

More to come.

Best Regards Both,

Michael

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Bengi & Hello Again Wilson,

Sorry for having to do this in sections. Sometimes there are complexities with my internet connection & tonite is 1 of those times.

As per softening & repairing & re-hardening a spring: When done properly we have found that properly repaired springs have no better or worse life, under the same circumstances, than any other spring does. Sometimes they work better.

But: I still recommend that Bengi contact & work with who knows what they are doing.

This is 1 of those situations where the technology & path forward are relatively simple IF you know what you are doing. Or if you can ask a person who knows & can otherwise be there to see what you are doing.

Best Regards Both,

Michael

Edited July 10, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Bengi,

I think that 1346mm is way too big.

I would look more in the 850 mm or maybe 900 mm range.

Not anything much larger.

Too much power can damage the mechanism to the point where repair might become problematical.

You really need someone who knows what they are doing to advise you where you are.

Because: We don't even know if the springs that you have in the mechanism were the proper springs when you got it.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited July 10, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[bengi]

I have contacted a local clock repair person for advice. He suggested reusing the original springs if possible but said a replacement is doable and to absolutely match the height and thickness exactly. The length can be trimmed down. So I've ordered the 15.0 x 0.30 x 1346mm (52.9 inches) and we will trim it down to 33 inches and cut a hole to match the original. And he will install the new springs in the barrels using his spring winder. 

I'll update when thats completed!

[bengi]

while we wait here's some parts I've started to clean. Some really pretty brass and interesting blue coating on some washers. And the worlds tiniest ball bearing assembly (fortunately I managed to avoid losing them during disassembly. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[alan mcfall]

While on the subject of MOOLY's and spring steel, I will ask the following:

Occasionally one will find a long-based MOOLY for the IIIC, chrome or black, with a broken internal actuation lever. It seems these spring steel "hooks" were broken when owners forced them in some manner, either during camera attachment or when removing the motor.  This spring "hook" replaced the external arm used to actuate the shutter on the short-based MOOLY. This photo shows a broken and a normal spring "hook".

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

0.3

The bottom motor(5579) is broken, the top(5613) is as original and works fine. The question is how to repair. I have removed the actuator and the "hook" portion is spring steel, 0.3mm thick and 4mm wide. it is attached to a steel bar using two rivits. If I can replicate the '"hook", I will need to drill two small holes in it and use new rivits.  Has anyone atempted this repair? The 'hook' has a sharp bend, about 135 degrees at the top where it internally catches the shutter release spring/rod to fire the shutter,  when activating the lever on the front of the motor the 'hook" is pulled down 2-3 mm. I expect it will have to be soft, then bent then hardened. See close-up of hook here:

 

[bengi]

It seems like we need to start a broken MOOLY club.

[wlaidlaw]

Alan, 

I believe Ottmar Michaely has some spare parts for the MOOLY-C. It might be worth contacting him to see if he had a hook. PM me if you need contact details but I think they are on the repair sticky. I know Ottmar has for example a couple of the factory conversion kits for the IIIg to use a MOOLY-C. 

Wilson

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[bengi]

update: I was referred to a machinist who specializes in making barrels and springs for other clock makers

http://www.harrysclockshop.com/services.html

After speaking with him and sending him some photos he said he can quite easily make some custom springs and install them for me. So I've sent the barrels and arbors off to him and hopefully he'll get it done soon. He said he'll take a bunch of photos of the process so I'll share once he sends them. 

He said the way the old springs are made and attach to the barrels are quite complicated and not standard. Sounds very german.