budjames Posted June 15, 2019 Share #101 Posted June 15, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 6/13/2019 at 8:58 PM, NW67 said: Rubbish, how can you say that. when you stop the Noctilux down to f2 and above it is as good if not better than the APO. And you already answered the last bit as the APO is an f2 not a 0,95 Neil Neil, I hope that you firmly express your opinion because you actually own both the Noctilux 50 0.95 and the APO Summicron 50. I do own them both along with the Summilux 50 and although all are great lenses, the APO images seem to have more detail and micro contrast which shows up in my prints too. Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 15, 2019 Posted June 15, 2019 Hi budjames, Take a look here M10 plus Noctilux like having a brick around your neck. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Chaemono Posted June 15, 2019 Share #102 Posted June 15, 2019 The only way to find out is to do controlled tests with the two/three lenses using a tripod. I don’t have a tripod with me but I may show some even though it will be pointless (see all the way down 😂). Fact is, PF is completely gone with the Noctilux at f/2 and the lens becomes super sharp. Otherwise everyone here may just be arguing from their subjective point of view without being consciously aware of it. Either because one dislikes the weight and size of the Noctilux or because one doesn’t own the APO. In theory, though, Neil is right. “[We have a] tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms our preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched-beliefs.” People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), believe perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series), and illusionary correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Attitude polarization and believe perseverance may be at work in this thread “maintaining a belief despite new information that firmly contradicts it. Such beliefs may even be strengthened when others attempt to present evidence debunking them, a phenomenon known as the backfire effect. 😂https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance That’s why I’m hesitant to do the tests. BTW, those who can control these biases best lose less money in the stock market. 🤣 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted June 15, 2019 Share #103 Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, a.noctilux said: M moooouuuunt, the new MS Optics ISM 1.0/50mm is available and only 178g small, light, for $1700 only 14 hours ago, pico said: Take a break from your huge Leica Noctilux and adventure into the tiny MS Optical Sonnetar 50mm ƒ/1.1 if you can find one. Compared to the results from the Sonnetar I have, the examples from the new ISM 50/1 looks a lot softer with flare and glow. I’ve no interest in the new MS lens, but keep the Sonnetar ( also prefer Sonnetar over the 7A 1.1 which I sold - poor bokeh and poor focus accuracy at mid to far distances ) I am finding the recent Voigtlander 40/1.2 a truely superb all round fast lens; right sized for a M10 on the streets. The VC 50/1.2 is reportedly similar and would temp me if I wanted another fast 50. For me the Noctilux 0.95 has focused very accurately wide open with unparalleled contrast, but is now a very specific task lens. I won’t sell it as Nocti-lust comes in cycles, so will blossom again. Edited June 15, 2019 by FrozenInTime 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budjames Posted June 15, 2019 Share #104 Posted June 15, 2019 Regarding tests, I like to read the results of others, but if I pick up my camera, I want to shoot photos. We all have such great choices in gear, software etc, but usually not enough time to enjoy our hobby. Well, at least for me, photography is a hobby in addition to Apple technology. "Boys and their toys" thing. Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted June 15, 2019 Share #105 Posted June 15, 2019 FrozenInTime, I like your "Nocti-lust blossoms", something that happens to me once a while and then happy to have Noctilux at hand ☺️. While using some "big-light-gathering-lenses" over years, Noctilux 1.0 is unique and not replicated by other lens (even not - for me, by Leica). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted June 15, 2019 Share #106 Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chaemono said: That’s why I’m hesitant to do the tests. You mean that science can’t decide about beauty, pleasure and love. Following Ockham’s razor I would stick to this conclusion rather than dive into the complex psychology of attitudes and biases. If a painter sticks to certain brushes because he loves them, it would be unwise to try to convince him that better brushes do exist. His belief in his brushes leads to and contributes to the quality of his work. In that sense it is non-sense to state that a good photo is only determined by the photographer and not by the lens he uses. It certainly is effected by the love for his tools. Edited June 15, 2019 by otto.f Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2019 Share #107 Posted June 15, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 hours ago, Chaemono said: The only way to find out is to do controlled tests with the two/three lenses using a tripod. I don’t have a tripod with me but I may show some even though it will be pointless (see all the way down 😂). Fact is, PF is completely gone with the Noctilux at f/2 and the lens becomes super sharp. Otherwise everyone here may just be arguing from their subjective point of view without being consciously aware of it. Either because one dislikes the weight and size of the Noctilux or because one doesn’t own the APO. In theory, though, Neil is right. “[We have a] tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms our preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched-beliefs.” People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), believe perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series), and illusionary correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Attitude polarization and believe perseverance may be at work in this thread “maintaining a belief despite new information that firmly contradicts it. Such beliefs may even be strengthened when others attempt to present evidence debunking them, a phenomenon known as the backfire effect. 😂https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance That’s why I’m hesitant to do the tests. BTW, those who can control these biases best lose less money in the stock market. 🤣 Somewhere in there I read Neil is write. Usually I am. I think at the end of the day most people that use the APO wish that they were strong enough to us the noctilux but tent to come back with science to justify there decision.......... sound about right?? Eil Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 15, 2019 Share #108 Posted June 15, 2019 50 Summilux ASPH works just fine for me. No scientific analysis involved; just pics and prints. Don’t like the ergonomics and handling of either the APO or Noctilux, and f1.4 is already close to unnecessary for my needs. We each have different goals and priorities. Choices are abundant. Jeff 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 15, 2019 Share #109 Posted June 15, 2019 vor 1 Stunde schrieb otto.f: You mean that science can’t decide about beauty, pleasure and love. Following Ockham’s razor I would stick to this conclusion rather than dive into the complex psychology of attitudes and biases. If a painter sticks to certain brushes because he loves them, it would be unwise to try to convince him that better brushes do exist. His belief in his brushes leads to and contributes to the quality of his work. In that sense it is non-sense to state that a good photo is only determined by the photographer and not by the lens he uses. It certainly is effected by the love for his tools. You're veering off course here either because you're confused or because you try to provoke. You're too smart to be confused, so I'd say it's the latter. Beauty, pleasure, and love are subjective concepts. We're talking about which lens is optically a better performer at f/2, and optical performance is an objective concept, it can be measured. And my point is, even if one tests these lenses to find out, people will stick to their beliefs that the APO is better or the Noctilux is better, particularly scientists. 😁 "In another study, subjects spent about four hours following instructions of a hands-on instructional manual. At a certain point, the manual introduced a formula which led them to believe that spheres are 50% larger than they are. Subjects were then given an actual sphere and asked to determine its volume; first by using the formula, and then by filling the sphere with water, transferring the water to a box, and directly measuring the volume of the water in the box. In the last experiment in this series, all 19 subjects held a Ph.D. degree in a natural science, were employed as researchers or professors at two major universities, [😂] and carried out the comparison between the two volume measurements a second time with a larger sphere. All but one of these scientists clung to the spurious formula despite their empirical observations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance And as a bonus: "Physicist Max Planck wrote that "the new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it". For example, the heliocentric theory of the great Greek astronomer, Aristarchus of Samos, had to be rediscovered about 1,800 years later, and even then undergo a major struggle before astronomers took its veracity for granted." 🤣 And I conclude, we have to wait until the APO or the Noctilux users die to settle the issue. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted June 16, 2019 Share #110 Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Chaemono said: And my point is, even if one tests these lenses to find out, people will stick to their beliefs that the APO is better or the Noctilux is better, particularly scientists. 😁 That’s exactly what I meant, so I don’t provoke, sorry about that. I just gave a more general and shorter explanation of the same fact. So doing tests is rather useless, there’s no reason to hesitate in that. And btw, scientist are supposed to know best what the restrictions of science are. I read the other day that the man who stood behind the photo of the black hole (among others), is a highly religious man. Edited June 16, 2019 by otto.f 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2019 Share #111 Posted June 16, 2019 I personally think that the APO owners are just want to be Noctilux owners so hence the slagging match. Enjoy what ever you have. Even the poor folks with the sumerlux seem to be happy:) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 16, 2019 Share #112 Posted June 16, 2019 vor 33 Minuten schrieb otto.f: I read the other day that the man who stood behind the photo of the black hole (among others), is a highly religious man. He was probably trying to find out where all the darkness came from on the “first” day (Genesis 1:1-2: “...and darkness was on the face of the deep”) before life appeared in the water first on the ‘fifth’ day. Somehow these buggers knew the order 3,500 years ago (as long as one doesn’t take ‘days’ literally), just like Aristarchos (Greek spelling) knew that the earth revolved around the sun 1,800 years ago. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2019 Share #113 Posted June 16, 2019 M10 naughtylux Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/297958-m10-plus-noctilux-like-having-a-brick-around-your-neck/?do=findComment&comment=3760384'>More sharing options...
ELAN Posted June 16, 2019 Share #114 Posted June 16, 2019 3 hours ago, NW67 said: I personally think that the APO owners are just want to be Noctilux owners so hence the slagging match. Enjoy what ever you have. Even the poor folks with the sumerlux seem to be happy:) That's not true for everyone. I own (and like) all three lenses but the 50 Summilux is my favorite. If I had to sell one the Noctilux would go first... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budjames Posted June 16, 2019 Share #115 Posted June 16, 2019 3 hours ago, NW67 said: I personally think that the APO owners are just want to be Noctilux owners so hence the slagging match. Enjoy what ever you have. Even the poor folks with the sumerlux seem to be happy:) I own both and love them both for different reasons.👍 Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2019 Share #116 Posted June 16, 2019 1 hour ago, budjames said: I own both and love them both for different reasons.👍 Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto. Congrats Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2019 Share #117 Posted June 16, 2019 1 hour ago, ELAN said: That's not true for everyone. I own (and like) all three lenses but the 50 Summilux is my favorite. If I had to sell one the Noctilux would go first... You would regret it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 16, 2019 Share #118 Posted June 16, 2019 This thread started with complaints about the Noctilux heft, and has morphed into a ‘mine is better than yours’ discussion. Possible connection to prior erectile dysfunction thread. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2019 Share #119 Posted June 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, Jeff S said: This thread started with complaints about the Noctilux heft, and has morphed into a ‘mine is better than yours’ discussion. Possible connection to prior erectile dysfunction thread. Jeff Always happens that way buddy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 16, 2019 Share #120 Posted June 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, NW67 said: Always happens that way buddy Not due to the OP, who typically resists the digression. But manhood isn’t typically involved. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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