TL60/2.8 as a portrait lens?

[rob_w]

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I mentioned on this forum wanting a good wide-aperture portrait lens for the CL.  My preference is for a prime, simply to get the widest aperture available.  In the 80-110mm equivalent range, only the TL60 is native to the CL.  But is its 2.8 aperture wide enough?  I imagine that equates to around 4.2 DOF on a FF camera.  Is that sufficient?   The alternative might be to use the SL50 (1.4 or 2.0 when released), or the SL75, but that adds some weight and bulk.  I have looked through the TL60 image thread but most pics are about its macro capabilities.

Would appreciate any thoughts how others have addressed this need, if they feel it is a need.

Thanks

[wda]

Sigma will soon be releasing some interesting TL mount lenses including one in your desired focal length. Have a look at Clifton Cameras website for illustrations of the ART range likely to be available.

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[grahamhoey]

The SL Summicrons are spectacular lenses. They balance quite nicely on the CL so I encourage you to try those. I found the 60mm TL wasn’t fast enough for portraits. 

[Dave in Wales]

15 hours ago, wda said:

Sigma will soon be releasing some interesting TL mount lenses including one in your desired focal length. Have a look at Clifton Cameras website for illustrations of the ART range likely to be available.

https://www.cliftoncameras.co.uk/Clifton-Cameras-|-Products/?q=sigma+lens&ft=

[rob_w]

Thanks Dave.  Do you know if Sigma will be releasing lenses in APS-C format?  The SL primes look attractive, but are still rather large on the CL although I will try them out as Graham suggests.

[ralf3]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb rob_w:

Thanks Dave.  Do you know if Sigma will be releasing lenses in APS-C format?  The SL primes look attractive, but are still rather large on the CL although I will try them out as Graham suggests.

Yes, in 2020.

https://www.l-rumors.com/sigma-says-new-l-mount-designed-lenses-are-coming-in-2019-and-aps-c-l-mount-lenses-in-2020/

[alainD]

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It depends on the type of portraits you are trying to make. If you want creamy booker, yes in focus but nothing else, then you either need something a lot faster in this format or go to larger sensor with a fast lens, like 85mm f/1.4 on full frame... If you want to make tack sharp portraits with a bit of depth of field so the entire face is in focus, then the 60mm f/2.8 macro is a wonderful lens. 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by alainD

[Louis]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:06 AM, grahamhoey said:

The SL Summicrons are spectacular lenses. They balance quite nicely on the CL so I encourage you to try those. I found the 60mm TL wasn’t fast enough for portraits. 

Graham, I do agree with you. During my testing of 60 mm, I realized how sharp with beautiful rendering this lens is. But as you mentioned, it is not fast enough and doesn’t have a great control of bokeh for portraits. It is, indeed, a superb glass for macro, as indicated by Leica, but not really for portraits IMHO. I found 75 mm much more interesting.

[rob_w]

Thanks Alain and Louis and others.  Alain as PM'd me a head and shoulders shot with the TL60 which argues the case pretty well. 

Louis, do you have any comparable shots with the SL75 for example.  Would be helpful to see some more examples of possible, with the TL60 or alternatives.

[Louis]

Robert, here are a few from both lenses, but I am not sure if they could be comparable since the subjects are different! I had these lenses separately for a very short time to test. You should also remember that 75, being SL and faster,  is much more expensive than 60mmTL.

Here, with 60 mm.

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From 75 mm:

 

 

As you can see, they are both very sharp with nice colors. But 75 is faster and I find it  better  for portraits.

BTW, I think Rob (Ropo54) has both and his input must be considered. Also, if you go a little back in CL/TL forum, you can find other discussions about this issue. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Louis

[ramarren]

On 5/28/2019 at 7:44 AM, rob_w said:

I mentioned on this forum wanting a good wide-aperture portrait lens for the CL.  My preference is for a prime, simply to get the widest aperture available.  In the 80-110mm equivalent range, only the TL60 is native to the CL.  But is its 2.8 aperture wide enough?  I imagine that equates to around 4.2 DOF on a FF camera.  Is that sufficient?   The alternative might be to use the SL50 (1.4 or 2.0 when released), or the SL75, but that adds some weight and bulk.  I have looked through the TL60 image thread but most pics are about its macro capabilities.

Would appreciate any thoughts how others have addressed this need, if they feel it is a need.

Thanks

 

Pulling up my handy dandy DOF calculator and entering in the values for using the CL with a 60mm lens at 7 foot focus distance (typical portrait shooting distance, I get: 

Format: APS-C

Focal length: 60mm

:: Aperture: f/2.8

Subject distance: 7 ft 

Depth of field 

Near limit     6.75 ft

Far limit     7.27 ft

Total     0.53 ft

In front of subject     0.25 ft    (48%)

Behind subject     0.27 ft    (52%)

Hyperfocal distance     181.8 ft

Circle of confusion     0.023 mm

So, at typical portrait distance, with the TL60 macro lens you net a minimum of about six and a half inches of DoF. Far as I'm concerned, that's a little scanty for a good portrait. The typical distance from an adult's nose to the ear is about six inches; I'd likely stop it down to f/4.

I've made many many portraits with a 90mm lens at f/4 to f/5.6 on FF digital and 35mm film, netting the same focus zone.. OF course, what you might like is a matter of personal preference, so you have to make that judgement for yourself. . 

[robgo2]

I started a similar thread not long ago and got several responses that suggested using fast manual focus full-frame lenses (e.g. 50 f1.4) for portraiture, and that is what I am doing. Focusing manually on the CL is fairly fast and simple.  Moreover, the rendering qualities of some of the older lenses are very well suited to portraits. Some users think they are preferable to more modern lenses.

Edited May 29, 2019 by robgo2

[ramarren]

54 minutes ago, robgo2 said:

I started a similar thread not long ago and got several responses that suggested using fast manual focus full-frame lenses (e.g. 50 f1.4) for portraiture, and that is what I am doing. Focusing manually on the CL is fairly fast and simple.  Moreover, the rendering qualities of some of the older lenses are very well suited to portraits. Some users think they are preferable to more modern lenses.

The Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 renders on APS-C renders so similarly to how the Summicron-R 90mm f/2 renders on full frame, it's amazing.  Superb portrait lenses! 

[rob_w]

14 hours ago, ramarren said:

Pulling up my handy dandy DOF calculator

Ramarren -- is this an app or something and if so is there a link?  Looks "handy dandy" indeed! 

I've never owned a 90 f4 lens, always had 2.0 or 2.8 in both 75 and 90 (inc. 75/1.4 many years ago) and I have always used them at or near widest aperture with pleasing results.  Nevertheless, your calculator results are encouraging.  Thank you 😊

Edited May 30, 2019 by rob_w

[rob_w]

13 hours ago, ramarren said:

The Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4

Wonderful lens. I did have one of these, long ago, but it went when I traded the R kit on a digital M as part of upgrading my M system from film to digital.  Who knew that patience would be rewarded 10-15 years later for all those R shooters?

I have used the Summilux-M 1.4/50 on the CL and do find the focus magnification very helpful as people have said.  Below is an example.  I focused on the near eye lashes which are pin sharp at f1.4 (sharper than they look in this upload). 

However, the subject is rarely as stationary and absorbed as on this occasion and I find manual focusing too slow (for me with my eyesight) in most situations.  If Leica made a TL50/1.4 to match the wonderful TL35/1.4 I would be a happy bunny!

 

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Edited May 30, 2019 by rob_w

[NigelG]

You will be able to try out the FF sigma 50mm 1.4 soon (or maybe wait for the Sigma APS-C 56mm 1.4 next year......) 

I’m currently using the 50 lux ASPH or an MS Optical 73mm 1.5 on the M adapter but a native L-mount option would be nice.

[ramarren]

3 hours ago, rob_w said:

Ramarren -- is this an app or something and if so is there a link?  Looks "handy dandy" indeed! 

I've never owned a 90 f4 lens, always had 2.0 or 2.8 in both 75 and 90 (inc. 75/1.4 many years ago) and I have always used them at or near widest aperture with pleasing results.  Nevertheless, your calculator results are encouraging.  Thank you 😊

You're welcome! It's "DOFMaster" ... Very useful website with lots of different depth of field tools and info.

My standard 90mm lens for many years has been the M-Rokkor 90mm f/4 (first series, built on the same production line as the Leitz Elmar-C 90mm f/4 for the CL in Wetzlar; only thing that distinguishes them are the M-Rokkor has standard 40.5mm filter thread instead of Series V filter thread). It's not the most ballyhooed lens in Leica's history, but I love its size, weight, and rendering qualities. The one I have now is the second or third one I've owned since 1976 or so, because I stupidly sold the earlier one(s). 

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Bicyclist on Jurby Road — Isle of Man, Sandygate 2011
Ricoh GXR-M + M-Rokkor 90mm f/4

It's a lovely, small lens. Easy to travel with. I've used it with film CL, M4-2, Ricoh GXR-M, Sony A7, M-P 240, M9, M-D 262, SL, and digital CL bodies. It works beautifully on all of them.

[rob_w]

Thanks Ramarren.  I guess the more generalised version of my question is "is 90/f4 sufficient for portraits"?

It's starting to look like the answer is "Yes" from responses so far.  At least as far as max aperture is concerned.  Characteristics of the individual lenses still apply of course.