Pains and doubts

[mrcmrc]

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Unfortunately, nine years after the purchase, my M9 shows the first signs of a sensor degradation (the fact that the sensor had been replaced after eleven months of use because it had broken was not used to avoid degradation now). The Leica store told me that the replacement cost would be around € 1800. If I decided to purchase an M10-P, the Leica store would charge my M9 for about € 1450. Of course the cost of the operation would still be high, and I cannot avoid not being disappointed and sad by this whole deteriorating sensor affair.
Over the years, using the M9 has been a pleasure, but from Leica I would have expected better treatment.

Apart from these considerations: does someone who has switched from an M9 to an M10 or M10-P want/can share his impressions with me? Both in terms of image quality and the quality of the camera itself.

Thanks in advance,

- Marco.

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[pico]

7 minutes ago, mrcmrc said:

Apart from these considerations: does someone who has switched from an M9 to an M10 or M10-P want/can share his impressions with me? Both in terms of image quality and the quality of the camera itself.

I have two M9s and like them, but when I got an M10 I was so impressed I put the m9s away.

[Jeff S]

The M10 is superb ; I think the most refined and robust digital M platform to date, so far without major reported issues (I haven’t used the P version, but it should be as good or better.)  After using various film Ms, I moved from the M8.2 to M240 to M10, and have appreciated the incremental improvements, including the best digital M VF I’ve experienced in the M10.

About 18 months ago I picked up a mint Monochrom (based on the M9 platform), with the new sensor fix and Leica service.  It produces wonderful files, if I do my job.  I could say that about all the Ms I’ve used, with differences subject to personal tastes and needs, as well as workflow and output medium (prints for me).  But there’s no question that the M10 smokes the M9 in terms of quiet and refined operation, weather sealing, improved RF/VF, etc.  And I like that its frame lines are optimized for 2m, unlike the 1m distance for the M9.

All that said, you still might want to push your case to a higher Leica power, or at least encourage your dealer to do so. Disparate reported service experiences (cost, turnaround and/or success) are common here. Often the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  

Jeff

[aaron.fuchs]

I think I have an unpopular opinion regarding the M9. I had one for almost 5 years before sensor corrosion startet to eat it. In those years I never fully warmed up with the camera. I loved it simply because you have to love your children even when they are slow, heavy and loud. I never fell in love with the CCD colors. My M6 on the other hand was a marvel.

I used the M9 most of the time with the 50 Summicron (non-APO) and in 2018 I was looking for a new lens to improve my experience with the M9. I thought a new lens would bring new life into the relationship with the lost child. I entered the Leica Store to buy a new lens and left it with a camera, that had no future (due to the corrosion). I returned to the store on the same day and traded in my M9 for a new M10. Of course it costed me a fortune.

Well, what can I say. In my opinion everything is better... with two exceptions: no natural light for the frame lines (yes, even that is important for me) and worse battery life.

The mechanical engineering feels better (maybe my M9 was getting old, but I alway hated the cheap looking plastic buttons on the rear of the camera). The shutter sound was horrible (at least substantial). And then there was the slow operation. When I remember my M9 I have mixed feelings. It never failed. It was very beautiful in its own way. But the really good pictures came from the M6 (my true love).

The image quality of the M10 is better in almost every way. Except of course for the colors, that are just different.

There's only one thing I would do differently: I would take the M10-P instead of the M10. But at that time the M10-P was not part of the trade-in program.

I think the M10 brings everything to be my most loved camera... even character.

[TomB_tx]

I got an M9 in 2010, and its the only digital I liked at that time, as I could use it just like my M4 & M6 that I've had for decades. I was fully satisfied with it, but after Leica announced they would end the free sensor replacement, I tested carefully and found the first signs of corrosion - but it hadn't really affected pictures yet.So I sent it in for Leica to check, and after a few months got it back working like new. Most digital electronics would be trash after 7 years, but Leica's replacement program went far beyond what I would have expected. Even if they had not done the free replacement, I would not have complained about a sensor problem after 7 years of good service.

As others have said, I still like the M9, but did get an M10 a year ago, and recommend it highly. Some folk can't tell much difference in the viewfinder, but I find it much better, and easier to hit exact focus. Pretty much everything is improved. The high ISO is also nice (coming from a film guy who thought 400 was great), and I've now gone to f2.5 lenses as my normal kit for the size, handling and performance, now that they are more usable in dim light.

[jplomley]

Best M ever, and I was an early adopter of the M8, then a pair of M9's and the MM1. Skipped the M240. Just picked up a second M10 a month ago and use a 50 Lux Asph on one body and a 28 Cron Asph v2 on the other. First M10 has about 15,000 actuations and has been used from -30C to 36C without any trouble whatsoever. Even more impressive with both bodies is the fact that the RF calibration was spot on for all of my M lenses right out of the box. They are simply fantastic cameras that deliver on every level and I would not hesitate to trade in the M9 for one.

[Jeff S]

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Another thought... do you have an insurance policy on your gear that would cover any loss?  I’ve always kept mine fully insured, but policies vary by company, location and individual circumstances.  If not, worth considering going forward.

Jeff 

[mrcmrc]

32 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Another thought... do you have an insurance policy on your gear that would cover any loss?  I’ve always kept mine fully insured, but policies vary by company, location and individual circumstances.  If not, worth considering going forward.

Jeff 

No, unfortunately I don't have this type of insurance. Indeed, especially when it comes to expensive material like this, it would not be a bad habit...

Thanks for your thoughts,

- Marco.

[WvE]

If you have the funds I'd go for the trade in program. Objectively speaking it's not worth investing $1800 in a M9 but try to get a slightly better deal with Leica. Alternatively, sell your M9 and look for a used M10.   

[Luke_Miller]

You might query Leica about a courtesy repair. I've had good luck with that with automobiles.  Possibly Leica will cover part or all of the cost.

[adan]

Courtesy repairs and Insurance? For sensor corrosion?

Leica offered courtesy replacements for sensor corrosion up until August 2017. At which point they announced that would cease. Keep in mind that the M9 CCD sensors were made by a company that no longer exists in its original form (Kodak). Kodak's sensor business is now a part of ON Semiconductor. The M9/MM/M-E sensor (KAF-18500) is not in their regular catalog any more, because the only place they were ever used was in the M9/MM/M-E - once those went out production, there was zero market for them except for replacements.

I guess one can get "failure" insurance (as opposed to theft or damage insurance), but at what price for a product with a known and possibly inevitable and expensive failure mode? Rather like selling life insurance to someone who's already had three cardiac-bypass operations.

Bottom line: exactly 10 years and 00:01 seconds after the last M-E left the factory (and they are no longer in the Leica catalog now) Leica will declare "end of service life" for all CCD Leicas. Just as they did for M8 LCD screens. Ain't made no more. Fact of life for digital cameras with out-sourced components.

____________________________

As to the original question. I loved the M9s and kept two for 7+ years - skipped M(240). Traded one for my first M10, and kept one as backup for several months (had slight corrosion - one faint "line"). When Leica declared the end of free sensor replacements, I got that camera in just under the deadline, and when I got it back after 6 months, traded it (with the valuable "upgraded sensor" paperwork from Leica) for an additional M10 (slightly used).

No regrets at all moving from M9 to M10.

Why I liked the M10 in the first place:

- Better in low light than anything previous. I need ISO 10000-12500 in many places I photograph. Being able to shoot 135mm f/4 indoors at a hand-holdable 1/360th sec. is a joy.

- Quiet shutter/wind (compared to M9)

- Slightly better/bigger viewfinder that focuses more reliably with 75mm+ lenses.

Things I discovered in the M10 once I got one:

- Very good color - more accurate than the M9 in distinguishing reds/oranges, different-but-not-worse in other parts of the spectrum, once correctly profiled.

- Amazing dynamic range (ability to hold highlights with correct exposure, and then pull up shadows - as with the ISO, about 1-2 stops more than M9)

- image quality (resolution) not that much better than M9. 24 Mp only gives a 15% linear improvement over the M9: 6000-pixel picture width vs. 5212-pixel picture width. Not quite as sharp per pixel (but more pixels overcome that).

- revised microlenses (as in M240) produce a bit less "Italian-flag" color distortions with uncoded semi-wide-angles (35 or 28mm).

Edited May 21, 2019 by adan

[Jeff S]

OPer Andy’s insurance comments...

My type of collections policy applies to many potential insured items, and includes not just camera gear, but vintage books and prints, and selected other valuables. The initial policy underwriting requirements regarding personal qualifications, net worth, etc were stringent (and a good business relationship with my then agent helped),  but the premiums are still extremely reasonable, and item documentation and recovery terms are liberal.  Fortunately I’ve only needed to test coverage very infrequently, but payout has been swift and painless. Under the same policy umbrella, other clients insure millions of dollars of art and other extraordinarily expensive objects, so a measly camera is a nit.  In fact, I was told not to bother with itemizing camera accessories (bags, meters, tripods, etc), but would be included as part of a covered incident. They don’t require appraisals on my gear; I assess replacement value.  Even appreciation up to +50% of my assessment requires no notification and automatic adjustment if needed for same or equivalent.

Hypothetically, under circumstances presented here, I have little doubt that my agent would work to achieve an outcome that would result in a favorable outcome on repair or replacement expenses.  Whether I’d pursue that option is another question. I’d be far more inclined to work with Leica to achieve an agreeable solution.

As I said, policies (and service) vary greatly by company, by type, by location and by personal circumstances. Equally important is having a good ‘middleman’ to assist, whether that’s an insurance agent or a camera dealer.

Jeff

Edited May 21, 2019 by Jeff S

[Luke_Miller]

20 hours ago, adan said:

Courtesy repairs and Insurance? For sensor corrosion?

My point was that sometimes a manufacturer will do a "good will" repair outside the warranty period.  Doesn't hurt to ask.

[Jeff S]

53 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

My point was that sometimes a manufacturer will do a "good will" repair outside the warranty period.  Doesn't hurt to ask.

The forum has many examples (particularly M and S gear) of folks receiving free or minimal cost repairs, with quick turnaround, even out of warranty or policy, at the same time others are subject to high costs and/or extraordinarily long turnarounds for similar issues. I think it would be foolish not to ask or object, diplomatically, either personally or though a dealer, if one feels treatment is particularly unfair.  S lens AF repairs provide many such examples of disparate treatment.

Jeff

[mrcmrc]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The forum has many examples (particularly M and S gear) of folks receiving free or minimal cost repairs, with quick turnaround, even out of warranty or policy, at the same time others are subject to high costs and/or extraordinarily long turnarounds for similar issues. I think it would be foolish not to ask or object, diplomatically, either personally or though a dealer, if one feels treatment is particularly unfair.  S lens AF repairs provide many such examples of disparate treatment.

Jeff

Thank you all for your answers.

I contacted Leica Germany, they replied with an email listing all the purchase costs of their various new models and their price if I return the M9. 

The price that interested me, that of the M10-P, was identical to the one the Leica Store Italia provided to me. From this we can deduce two things: the first, more obvious, is that they ignored my request for a lower purchase price than the one I had already been offered. The second thing is that there is a real price list for those who return an M9 with a degraded sensor and want to buy a new camera (and this really shouldn't surprise me).

No excuse, no offer, no useless speech. Simply a price list. In practice, I will have to send the M9 to Germany and then - against my payment - they will send me a new M10-P.

I'm not really surprised. But I still feel a little perplexed and a little sad.

Anyway, thank you very much for the time you spent writing your impressions. Let's say that the sympathy and kindness of the people who attend this forum is something that anyone would like even from a company like Leica, but those - apparently - are business. And I imagine they have to lead them this way...

- Marco.

[Jeff S]

Unfortunate.  These decisions can also depend on the people involved, timing, luck and even negotiating tactics and perseverance.  Some reps and dealers, I think, have more clout and sympathy.  I try to develop long term relationships that can help, even if by phone. I stick with a few trusted dealers and have developed a reliable point of contact at NJ repair. But sometimes there’s just no leeway.  I wish that customer treatment for Leica service were more equitable.  The trade off is that a small company can be less bureaucratic at times, and more inclined to relate personally and do some favors.  

Good luck getting everything resolved.

Jeff

 

[low325]

Trade up to the M10(insert letter or not - budget pending). The M9 is still my favorite Between both my M9 and M10D.  Call it nostalgia, but I only acquired it 2 years ago?  Just haven’t warmed up to the M10D and I find myself thinking if I’ll ever use it as much as I used my M9.  But I know the feeling. Good luck sorting it out.  

[Al_OOF]

 I have used the M9 for about three years, then I bought the M10 and used this mainly.  After almost two years it went to Wetzlar for a small settlement.  In that month I picked up the M9 ... My impression is that the jump from 9 to 10 is significant but even more is to go back to realize all the quality of the M10.

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