Normal Focusing with M10?

[mujk]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 5/5/2019 at 11:28 AM, budjames said:

I have not had any focus issues with either of my two M10s. However, when I purchased my first one in Nov 2017, I had a routinely random issue with the Summicron 35 mounted that the lens reading function would show "Adapted-R" in the metadata and on the LCD display instead of the Summicron 35.lens. By playing with the lens framing lever, I could get the readout to change between Summicron 35 and Adapted-R lens readings. I was also having focus issues with my brand new Summicron 35 and Summilux 50 lenses.

I took my new M10, Summicron 35 and Summilux 50 lenses to the NJ repair center in early Dec. After about an hour wait, I got the bad news that both lenses were out of calibration from the factory, but the M10 was fine. I left with the camera body only. I didn't get my lenses back from service until mid January.

After getting my lenses back, the random issue with the lens registration persisted but with lesser frequency. Since then I purchased the Summilux 35 so in Oct. 2018, I sent the Summicron 35 back to the service center to check out. The turnaround was one day. When I got the lens back, the service order included the installation of washers and recalibration. It's been great since.

My problem with the lens registration occurred less and less over time. Now, I can no longer invoke the issue by flicking the lens frame lever, so the problem just went away. Perhaps something wore in through use. All has been good for the past 7 months.

So much for the "legendary" Leica quality control based on my experiences above.

I have since purchased a number of Leica lenses and a 2nd M10 body. I have had no issues with any of this gear. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

That's a very strange problem. The lens coupling for frameline selection is fully mechanical and is located in a slot behind the lens flange in the camera body. The frameline preview selector is mechanically connected to this. The lens type is communicated to the body optoelectrically via a row of optical sensors located in the body on the front rim of the flange and a number of black and white dots on the lens flange. There is maybe 1cm distance between these two couplings and they should not be able to interfere with each other very easily, particularly when they work in completely different ways.

In theory, moving the frame selector could move a lens that is not sitting tightly enough in the mount and thus disturb the optical reading of the lens type. I don't think this is the case.

Although I haven't seen pictures of this part of the inside of an M10, a more probable scenario is that if there is an intermittent bad contact in the cable between the optical sensors described above and the camera electronics and this cable runs close to the frameline selector, operating this selector could move the cable very slightly and cause the bad contact to occur. So in this case the problem would be in the M10, not in the lens.

Edited May 8, 2019 by mujk

[250swb]

On 5/8/2019 at 7:06 PM, mujk said:

That's a very strange problem.

Not so strange if the small number of posts on the forum describing a sticky frameline selector lever/and or sticky frameline actuator (has anybody decided which it is?) are taken into account. It's the same problem described, and flicking the lever un-bungs the mechanism.

Another and/or problem which could be added to the mix is the tendency for new users to very carefully mount the lens but with the lens release button pressed in, so not letting the lens snap into place. This can cause the lens to turn very slightly over centre and not register the correct frameline. In turning the lens to focus the lens can then snap into it's proper place so creating what is described as an 'intermittent problem'. If the user has the first problem of a sticky mechanism and also hasn't been letting the lens snap into place it is the perfect storm.

[jaapv]

I agree with Stephen that over-rotating the lens with the release button  pressed is a not unlikely explanation.

[mujk]

10 hours ago, 250swb said:

Not so strange if the small number of posts on the forum describing a sticky frameline selector lever/and or sticky frameline actuator (has anybody decided which it is?) are taken into account. It's the same problem described, and flicking the lever un-bungs the mechanism.

Another and/or problem which could be added to the mix is the tendency for new users to very carefully mount the lens but with the lens release button pressed in, so not letting the lens snap into place. This can cause the lens to turn very slightly over centre and not register the correct frameline. In turning the lens to focus the lens can then snap into it's proper place so creating what is described as an 'intermittent problem'. If the user has the first problem of a sticky mechanism and also hasn't been letting the lens snap into place it is the perfect storm.

Yes, I'm familiar with the problem that results from turning the lens past centre by keeping the release button depressed. But do you think that operating the frame preview lever (as I understand Bud is doing) would really turn the not properly locked lens in the mount enough so that the optical lens type detection would change? Although the preview lever is coupled to the same mechanism as the one that detects the lens for frameline selection, I don't think it really asserts any force on the lens.

[250swb]

12 hours ago, mujk said:

Yes, I'm familiar with the problem that results from turning the lens past centre by keeping the release button depressed. But do you think that operating the frame preview lever (as I understand Bud is doing) would really turn the not properly locked lens in the mount enough so that the optical lens type detection would change? Although the preview lever is coupled to the same mechanism as the one that detects the lens for frameline selection, I don't think it really asserts any force on the lens.

But nowhere did I say that moving the frame preview lever could move the lens. I said that as well as a sticky frame line mechanism or preview lever the only other problem likely to cause incorrect frame lines is allowing the lens to go over centre. It would be unlikely to have both problems at the same time.

[mujk]

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were commenting on the problem that I had commented on and that Bud reported about: "By playing with the lens framing lever, I could get the readout to change between Summicron 35 and Adapted-R lens readings"

[Johno]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 5/3/2019 at 2:01 AM, 250swb said:

Of course, but looking at what the OP says about not being able to focus beyond infinity they are fundamentally misunderstanding a manual camera, and because of this are now actively searching around for theories that it isn't them, it is the camera. This is the perspective of the situation.

Responding to the OP you can either fan pour petrol on the flames or suggest they take a step back. If you have somebody on the edge of the cliff not knowing if to jump it's best not to remind them that their dog is happier in it's new home, their wife has finally hooked up with a guy with a good salary, oh, and your camera could be like mine and need three trips for repair.

 

I've been using manual cameras since I shot for the town newspaper in high school in 1979 with my Pentax SP1000. Today  I have several AIS Nikon lenses for my D850 and two Zeiss ZF.2 lenses. The Nikon lenses and the Zeiss lenses behave differently.  So I thought I was acquainted with the basics of manual shooting.

But maybe I still haven't grasped the fundamentals. Some of my manual focus lenses go beyond infinity and my Leica lenses don't.  Being new to Leica I thought it might be safe to ask here without criticism. Leica literature that comes with the lenses says adjusting the lenses is tricky business and I may need to send the camera and lenses to them to get it right.

Following my post I've shot with the lens and confirmed it can crisply resolve power lines in the distance, which is good enough for me. This camera is not nearly as sharp as a D850 with a 50, 100 or 135 mm Zeiss lens, but it's a better camera then I am a photographer, so I'm good for now.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Johno

[250swb]

5 hours ago, Johno said:

 

 Being new to Leica I thought it might be safe to ask here without criticism. Leica literature that comes with the lenses says adjusting the lenses is tricky business and I may need to send the camera and lenses to them to get it right.

 

You were not being criticised by me, if you read the whole thread back in context I was trying to make sure you weren't led up the garden path into thinking it was faulty equipment as the most likely explanation of your problem. But you didn't understand how Leica lenses worked, fact, and you were casting about for alternative explanations, fact. Sticks and stones will break your bones but facts will never hurt you. 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, Johno said:

But maybe I still haven't grasped the fundamentals. Some of my manual focus lenses go beyond infinity and my Leica lenses don't.  Being new to Leica I thought it might be safe to ask here without criticism. Leica literature that comes with the lenses says adjusting the lenses is tricky business and I may need to send the camera and lenses to them to get it right.

 

This is not about the basics of manual shooting but about the basics of rangefinder technology.
Adjusting the camera and lenses is not that tricky in general. The camera has two (three) adjustment points that can even be corrected in DIY -there are threads on this forum-, the lenses are adjusted by shims. Not only Leica, but third-party repair shops offer this service for most lenses.

The reason that Leica requests both lenses and camera is because they wish to determine whether the camera or the lens is at fault. The lens and the camera are never "adjusted to one another"but separately to a common standard. The only semi-exception being with very critical lenses. I such cases tolerance matching may be undertaken, i.e. adjust to compensate a minus tolerance to a plus tolerance, but always within the standard.

If this were not the case, cameras and lenses within the Leica M system would not be interchangeable.

As to focusing to infinity, it would be quite impractical to have the lens turn beyond the infinity stop. It is very hard if not impossible to get accurate RF focus at that distance. Just having the lens to the stop is far more practical and precise. Most experienced users will "focus from infinity" anyway. Otherwise you will be fiddling around the plane of focus all the time. One turn from infinity to spot-on is the proper technique.