Noob Focusing Question

[effstop]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hello - 

First post and thanks for all that I've learned from these fora, thus far.  Been a photographer for the past 35 years shooting SLR and DSLR.  I finally saved enough to purchase a new M10 and a Summilux 35 f/1.4 ASPH.  I'm wildly excited.  Here's the rub... I'm not new to manual focus and seem to think either my eyes are not adjusting to the M10's focusing screen or I just plain suck since I only have the camera for a week.  I cannot seem to achieve a tack sharp image.  I read the FAQ on focusing and followed along.  I've been practicing focusing along vertical and horizontal planes.  I hope that it will get better.  Any other tips to help boost confidence for a better shot?

Thanks for listening and any guidance is most appreciated.

--Chris

Edited April 30, 2019 by effstop

[jaapv]

Welcome to the forum

Check out the use of a diopter; it can make a huge difference.

[Peter Kilmister]

From your profile photo I think I can fairly judge that the earth orbited the sun a few times since you're born. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As we get older our eyes deteriorate. As @jaapv says a dioptre can help. I use a +1.25 dioptre and it does make a difference. 

However, for a fairly small (in Leica terms) investment you could buy the Leica Visoflex 020 which sits in the hot shoe and, using Live View, provides detailed focus highlights.

I tried one out for close work and took two shots at under 1 meter. Both came out perfectly focussed. They were never meant to be artistic, just tests.

Probably you have long sight like me. I can pin down focus at anything reasonably distant. Close up is a nightmare but then rangefinders were developed for naval gunnery and close up wasn't a consideration.

I hope this will be useful information.

[Jeff S]

Be sure to correct for any astigmatism before using any diopter for distance.  I wear glasses to correct for astigmatism and distance, but still benefit from a small +.5 diopter correction, which is common for aging eyes (the M has a built in minus .5 diopter). 

Note that the M focus patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m, so ideally you want to see this as well as subjects at varying distance.  A simple way to check diopter strength if you don’t live near a Leica dealer is to stop by any local optician that carries trial diopters.  You can place (tape) these in front of the VF to determine optimal strength before ordering a Leica one fitted to the M10.

If all that doesn’t work, check your RF alignment using live view.

Jeff

[Rus]

Since you've had experiences with manual focusing in general, I suggest checking the coupling accuracy between your lux 35mm Asph and your M10. Set the camera on a tripod and test for focusing accuracy at minimal focusing distance, mid-range, and infinity. Use the live view to achieve the perfect focus, and then look into the viewfinder window to see if the rangefinder patch images are perfectly aligned. If they are, then your lens-camera coupling is fine. If not, then calibration is needed in either the camera or the lens, or both. 

[dkmoore]

59 minutes ago, Rus said:

Since you've had experiences with manual focusing in general, I suggest checking the coupling accuracy between your lux 35mm Asph and your M10. Set the camera on a tripod and test for focusing accuracy at minimal focusing distance, mid-range, and infinity. Use the live view to achieve the perfect focus, and then look into the viewfinder window to see if the rangefinder patch images are perfectly aligned. If they are, then your lens-camera coupling is fine. If not, then calibration is needed in either the camera or the lens, or both. 

+1.

All of the other ideas are great but I think with 35 years experience you would be able to align the rangefinder patch at a simple subject in bright sunlight and achieve perfect focus, regardless of aging eyes. I have done an experiment of such with my contacts out (horrible vision without contacts) and I was able to get an in focus shot with the above criteria.

I would bet quite a bit of money that the rangefinder or lens are not simpatico. 

D

[IkarusJohn]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi Chris,

I wouldn't stress too much about focusing accuracy.  You may well be torturing yourself unnecessary - if you're shooting at f/1.4 all the time, at close focusing distances, there's a high chance your image will be a little soft ...

A couple of thoughts for you:

1. There is much written here about calibration of lens and camera, with many people finding new, out of the box lenses not being calibrated properly.  There's really only one good way to check this, and that is to set up your camera on a tripod at 45 degrees to a ruler or other linear image, focus carefully and take a picture.  While conceptually, having a focusing mechanism unrelated to what hits the sensor, focusing might seem hit and miss, it has been my experience that such errors are rare.  My M10-D was spot on, and I checked every lens I have, varying from ASPH Summiluxes to a 70 year old Summitar, and all were spot on.
2. Practise your focusing - it does take time to get right.  It's easy to do things like put your finger over the focus window, forget to take the lens cap off, forget to focus etc - just get used to the idea of aligning the two images in the focus patch - it is fast and accurate.
3. Ageing eyesight can be an issue.  I have mild long sight (presbyopia), exacerbated by other complications - but with a 2 metre virtual distance through the viewfinder, it shouldn't be an issue.  You're aligning two images, rather than trying to achieve sharp focus as you would through an optical SLR or EVF.  Try always starting from infinity, focusing in, then out then in again (minor adjustment), and it will come right.

Adding the Visoflex (020) is a good idea - I don't use mine very much, but it is useful to have as a check.  The OVF really is the best option.

Cheers
John

[dkmoore]

3 hours ago, effstop said:

Hello - 

First post and thanks for all that I've learned from these fora, thus far.  Been a photographer for the past 35 years shooting SLR and DSLR.  I finally saved enough to purchase a new M10 and a Summilux 35 f/1.4 ASPH.  I'm wildly excited.  Here's the rub... I'm not new to manual focus and seem to think either my eyes are not adjusting to the M10's focusing screen or I just plain suck since I only have the camera for a week.  I cannot seem to achieve a tack sharp image.  I read the FAQ on focusing and followed along.  I've been practicing focusing along vertical and horizontal planes.  I hope that it will get better.  Any other tips to help boost confidence for a better shot?

Thanks for listening and any guidance is most appreciated.

--Chris

My recommendation is to make the hour trip to Leica Store Miami so they can help you figure this out quickly, whether it be focus calibration of the lens, calibration of the rangefinder (or both), and they have the diopters and EVF that all of the forum folks recommended above. They will help you sort this out quickly so you don't have to torture yourself.

[adan]

The M10 and other Leica Ms do not have a "focusing screen" - unless using LV or the add-on EVF electronic screens.

They have windows. You are looking right through transparent glass to see the subject.

Therefore, the images do not and should not go "in and out of focus" like an SLR. In fact, most of the M viewfinder will look sharp and clear, whether the focusing is correct, or completely off. As Leica photographer Charlie Harbutt once said - "SLR photographers see the world at f/1.4 - Leica photographers see everything sharp."

The only place where focusing is possible is in the small brighter central rectangular patch. And even there, things don't change from blurry to sharp of vice-versa. They should be sharp and clear all the time, but showing a misaligned double-image when not focused right. The trick is to align the two images of that part of the subject that you want to focus on.

Anyway, I agree with several points made:

1) Yeah, if you are over 40, you may need a corrective eyepiece lens to see the two RF images clearly enough to tell if they are actually aligned.

2) But for a 35mm lens, the Leica RF should have plenty of overkill even if seen a bit fuzzily - unless you are shooting everything at f/1.4 and 0.7m meters subject distance. "Close enough" counts with hand-grenades, horseshoes, and RF-focused wide-angles.

So I'd agree that a check of your camera and lens is a good idea. It may or may not be your eyes at all.

Additional point - do you have the original 35 f/1.4 ASPH (1994-2012), or the more recent floating-element version. It was the case that 1) the original non-FLE version sometimes had focus-shift with aperture, and therefore 2) some users had their lens adjusted for correct focus at f/1.4, and others had theirs adjusted for a compromise aperture of, perhaps, f/2.8. Just depended on which better suited their style of shooting.

That's another thing you can have Leica Miami check for you. Or check yourself - shoot the same thing at f/1.4-2.0-2.8-4, and see at which aperture the place where the RF was focused is actually sharpest.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Chris,

Welcome to the Forum.

When looking thru the range/viewfinder eyepiece you are NOT looking at a focusing screen. You are looking thru a series of windows with 2 little rectangles within 2 frames. 1 little rectangle only moves together with the frames in use when those frames move. And the other little rectangle moves when you rotate the focusing collar on the lens.

What happens when you put the little rectangle that moves together with the frames on a subject (Like a chair.) & then rotate the collar on the lens so that the little rectangle that is moved by rotating the lens collar: Exactly overlays the rectangle that moves when the frames move?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited May 1, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[effstop]

Wow - So many nice folks. Thank you for your suggestions. It was helpful to better understand the mechanics of how the windows align in the VF.  I’m also interested in trying what each of you suggest.  I think that I’m doing a good job of aligning the windows, so I’m eager to see what further testing yields.

Point of clarification, I’m 57 with presbyopia. I wear either progressive lenses or contacts. 

Seems I have some homework to do and will also head down to Leica Miami to further sort this out.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question and I’ll report my findings here.

— Regards / Chris

[effstop]

1 hour ago, adan said:

.Additional point - do you have the original 35 f/1.4 ASPH (1994-2012), or the more recent floating-element version. It was the case that 1) the original non-FLE version sometimes had focus-shift with aperture, and therefore 2) some users had their lens adjusted for correct focus at f/1.4, and others had theirs adjusted for a compromise aperture of, perhaps, f/2.8. Just depended on which better suited their style of shooting.

 

I have the newer 11663 which is FLE. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by effstop

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, effstop said:

Wow - So many nice folks. Thank you for your suggestions. It was helpful to better understand the mechanics of how the windows align in the VF.  I’m also interested in trying what each of you suggest.  I think that I’m doing a good job of aligning the windows, so I’m eager to see what further testing yields.

Point of clarification, I’m 57 with presbyopia. I wear either progressive lenses or contacts. 

Seems I have some homework to do and will also head down to Leica Miami to further sort this out.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question and I’ll report my findings here.

— Regards / Chris

I'm 60, and also have presbyopia and also wear progressive lenses (haven't tried contacts) - I focus with no problem.

You'll be fine!

[Macberg]

I have also got a diopter correction lens screwed onto the viewfinder and that made the decisive difference! I have a Summilux 50mm 1.4 Asph. and also struggled at the beginning. Now it's not really an issue any more. Try it in the store and you'll see the difference.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

Some people with progressive lenses have trouble doing some things because for some people in some situations: Progressive lenses can make straight lines curvy.

And this can create some types of problems. Sometimes.

Best Regards,

Michael

[jdlaing]

23 hours ago, effstop said:

Hello - 

First post and thanks for all that I've learned from these fora, thus far.  Been a photographer for the past 35 years shooting SLR and DSLR.  I finally saved enough to purchase a new M10 and a Summilux 35 f/1.4 ASPH.  I'm wildly excited.  Here's the rub... I'm not new to manual focus and seem to think either my eyes are not adjusting to the M10's focusing screen or I just plain suck since I only have the camera for a week.  I cannot seem to achieve a tack sharp image.  I read the FAQ on focusing and followed along.  I've been practicing focusing along vertical and horizontal planes.  I hope that it will get better.  Any other tips to help boost confidence for a better shot?

Thanks for listening and any guidance is most appreciated.

--Chris

I sent you a PM.

[RexGig0]

Perhaps someone else may have mentioned this, already, but be sure to view your images on a monitor, before judging whether your images are sharp. The M10’s LCD is not the best way to judge the sharpness of your images. I drove myself crazy, thinking my images were not focused properly, then saw them on my 12.9” iPad screen, and realized all was right with the world.

As others have mentioned, use your local Leica dealer as a resource, for tutoring and guidance. 

I wear eyeglasses to correct both near and far vision, and have a bit of astigmatism, too, yet I managed. I bought my M10 in April 2018, so am still a newbie, too. (I wish I had learned rangefinder focusing at a younger age, when my vision was better than 20/20.)

 

[effstop]

Thanks for the additional guidance.  Been walking around house between rain squalls and shooting with my contacts.  I like how I can really get up on the VF and see the whole window.  Furthermore, I've been starting at infinity and turning until I find the sweet spot and shooting.  Seems to be helping.  I went back and found this Test Shot from the other day.  I took it wide-open and braced against a tree in front of my house.  Looks OK to me.  Still want to head down to Miami to see if an increase in diopter helps.

I'm trying everyones suggestions and will report my findings.

--Chris

[IkarusJohn]

Your test shot looks fine.  Taken at 1/90, ISO 200, I'm assuming it was stopped down a bit.  Primarily using 35mm, really focusing accuracy shouldn't be an issue with the M10.  Have you tried taking images at a close focusing distance, angled 45 degrees to a plane, so you can see the plane of best focus?  While stopping down will show focus shift (especially between f/2 & f/4), this test should also show you whether the plane of best focus is in front of or behind the focal point.  Comparing the rangefinder and the EVF should also give you a quick answer.

At 2 metres (the virtual viewfinder range), you should be able to distinguish the parallax image well enough to nail focus ...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

At 2 metres (the virtual viewfinder range), you should be able to distinguish the parallax image well enough to nail focus ...

Not sure I follow this.  The M view of the world doesn’t shift for parallax; only the frame lines shift (and in the M10, those frame lines happen to be optimized for framing purposes at 2m). The double image in the VF patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m for viewing purposes; the rest of the VF is of course a clear view.  A subject needn’t be at 2m to nail focus.  I guess I missed your point.

Jeff