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SL2 Sensor: Panasonic S1 or S1R / Leica Q2?


Donut

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S1R / Q's larger sensor will most likely end up in the SL2 due to its larger resolution and bill as the more premium choice. However, the S1 24MP sensor apparently performs much better in regards to low light performance and dynamic range.

Horses for courses, though it would be interesting to see which way the pendulum swings.

I'm in the 24MP camp. I've printed and sold big wall prints from 16MP cameras no problem. 24MP is plenty, let alone 46+MP. Would much prefer the added flexibility of shooting at night. 

 

Edited by Donut
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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Donut:

S1R / Q's larger sensor will most likely end up in the SL2

No

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Donut:

However, the S1 24MP sensor apparently performs much better in regards to low light performance and dynamic range.

No

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Donut:

...it would be interesting to see which way the pendulum swings.

Neither way suggested.

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The S1R sensor does very well in the lab measurements (DR and signal to noise ratio) of this site (digitlcameraworld), even when it is compared to its rivals (Z7, A7R iii, GFX, X1D). So I think it would be good enough for the SL2. (I have the impression despite the same dimensions, it is different from the Q2 sensor.)   Sorry Chaemono, I just wonder why you are so certain that it is bad.
 Another review.  https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-s1-r-review

Edited by caissa
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Or the rumoured IMX435AQJ? Here is the link.

36MP,  BSI, 16 bit ADC for stills, PDAF and a few video modes for those that like that sort of thing. 😉  If the sensor performance is as good as it seems it might be then this could be Leica's route to offering a "better" camera than either the S1 or the S1R. And given the sensor is not yet, as far as I'm aware, officially announced it might be why the SL2 has also not yet been officially announced.

Not saying it will have this sensor, just saying it might. 🙂

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Given the precedent of Q heralding SL, the market  the camera will play have to play in for, presumably, four years and Leica's less than unlimited R&D budget, it is somewhat unthinkable to me that the next gen SL would have anything other than the same basic specs and hardware as the Q2.  A completely different sensor from Sony would require a completely different stack of supporting hardware and processor.  That translates to both higher R&D and production costs to what purpose?  Leica has already puts its stamp of approval on the 47MP sensor with the Q2.  If they decided it met the standard, why would the waste precious resources and energy elsewhere?

Nothing is impossible, of course. Certainly they have surprised in the past. Regardless, I'm sure whatever shows up will be extremely good to totally spectacular from an imaging perspective. Personally, I'm more concerned about the form factor, battery life, evf... oh and the price tag... than the pixel count or last half stop of DR.  There isn't any doubt in my mind around preferring Leica optics over those on offer by the other Alliance members, despite the rather sobering cost differential. The question I'm waiting to answer is whether or not I will maintain that conviction when it comes to the bodies. 

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11 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Given the precedent of Q heralding SL, the market  the camera will play have to play in for, presumably, four years and Leica's less than unlimited R&D budget, it is somewhat unthinkable to me that the next gen SL would have anything other than the same basic specs and hardware as the Q2.  Leica has already puts its stamp of approval on the 47MP sensor with the Q2.  If they decided it met the standard, why would the waste precious resources and energy elsewhere? Nothing is impossible, of course. 

Yes ...... in recent years Leica have increased the cross-product standardisation of components, presumably to reduce production costs. Usually the flagship product contains the new technology and it gradually bleeds down into other cameras/lenses. 

The current situation feels slightly different ..... as I am no longer sure whether the S3 or the SL is the flagship product showcasing new technology. Like the M, the S is now looking more like legacy product with uprated technology ..... Although the S3 has 64mpx, ISO 50k and 4k video there is not much else that is startlingly different. 

Because of the M legacy requirements for the SL sensor I suspect it will be a custom design ..... unlike the Q which if Leica had any sense uses optics less demanding than traditional M designs .... in which case they can use any off the shelf sensor. Possibly the Q sensor is a derivative of what they intend in the SL, but I have my doubts it will be identical. 

Leica have the SL to base designs on and 3.5 years of development time ....... Panasonic managed the FF S series from scratch in less than 3 years ...... and L alliance involvement was only discussed 2 years ago. I hope they have used the time productively.

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4 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

The current situation feels slightly different ..... as I am no longer sure whether the S3 or the SL is the flagship product showcasing new technology. Like the M, the S is now looking more like legacy product with uprated technology ..... Although the S3 has 64mpx, ISO 50k and 4k video there is not much else that is startlingly different. 

Because of the M legacy requirements for the SL sensor I suspect it will be a custom design .....  I hope they have used the time productively.

You raise an interesting point and frankly, as a current, and aging, M user, who placed his name on the list for an SL2 after seeing Jono's Q2 review, I certainly hope that a strength of the SL2 will be its support for legacy glass.  I tend agree with the suggestion that going forward the SL will be the top of the tree, at least technologically speaking. The S3, really its lens family, is in the unenviable position of being an SLR  design, which makes any compatible transition to mirrorless not all that worthwhile.  M glass, OTOH, despite the well documented technical difficulties, has the crucial advantages of simplicity, size and ubiquity in its favor for continuing to be relevant in the coming brave new world.

If the SL is indeed the flagship, its an interesting question as to how it will cope with the challenges of supporting the M legacy while in the same breadth being best of breed in its own right.   Great engineering is the art of balancing compromise in such way that its users are barely aware that any significant trade-offs needed to be made.  An important aspect of success starts with limiting scope, not trying to be too many conflicting things in a misguided effort to satisfy any potential customer.  In that sense, I could see it going either way. The SL, as the forward facing flagship, could unburden itself from any specific accommodations of the past in ordered to provide the best possible platform for the future or it could continue to embrace legacy as a differentiator in an increasingly difficult market.  Which ever path chosen, I too, hope they spent the time wisely. 

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb caissa:

The S1R sensor does very well in the lab measurements (DR and signal to noise ratio) of this site (digitlcameraworld), even when it is compared to its rivals (Z7, A7R iii, GFX, X1D). So I think it would be good enough for the SL2. (I have the impression despite the same dimensions, it is different from the Q2 sensor.)   Sorry Chaemono, I just wonder why you are so certain that it is bad.

Based on the RAW files of images taken in low light that are available on DPR. But it's better to shoot it against another 40+ MPx camera under the same conditions with the same lens. I don't want to compare it against the A7R III since this is the Leica forum. But I will eventually compare it against a back-illuminated FF sensor. I don't buy this 'it's illuminated from the front but we use microlenses to direct light better into the photodiodes."

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Bob Andersson:

Or the rumoured IMX435AQJ? Here is the link.

36MP,  BSI, 16 bit ADC for stills, PDAF and a few video modes for those that like that sort of thing. 😉  If the sensor performance is as good as it seems it might be then this could be Leica's route to offering a "better" camera than either the S1 or the S1R. And given the sensor is not yet, as far as I'm aware, officially announced it might be why the SL2 has also not yet been officially announced.

Not saying it will have this sensor, just saying it might. 🙂

4K video at 480fps? It sounds like a camcorder sensor to me. The body that houses it needs the space to manage the generated heat. 

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20 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

A completely different sensor from Sony would require a completely different stack of supporting hardware and processor.  That translates to both higher R&D and production costs to what purpose?

Extremely good points. If Leica doesn't see a need for the SL2 to find an ecological niche distinct from the S1 and S1R so far as the sensor is concerned then the Q2 sensor is a natural. I assume that the IMX435AQJ chip will be straightforward enough to support at the board level but whether Leica could use a Maestro processor and what the R&D costs are whether it could or couldn't are numbers only those way above my pay grade would know.

That said, if the SL2 has 36MP as well as the 15+ stop dynamic range (before any possible PDAF induced banding becomes visible) that my simplistic reading of the IMX435AQJ sensor's spec sheet indicates then I'd consider an SL2 introductory price similar to that of the original SL and about twice that of the S1R good value. If the SL2 uses any of the sensors mentioned in this thread's title then, for me, Leica has a price problem. I find the S1 uncomfortable to hold when not actually taking pictures and I don't much care for the button clutter but the difference in price between an S1 and the likely price of an SL2 would buy me the 75mm SL prime. Lenses are for life, my budget isn't unlimited and at the end of the day it's more about the images I capture although I'll concede that having nice toys is good too. 🙂

 

18 hours ago, Chaemono said:

4K video at 480fps? It sounds like a camcorder sensor to me. The body that houses it needs the space to manage the generated heat. 

Agreed. Of course there's no obligation for a manufacturer to enable all of the modes and heat management might be easier if there's no IBIS but that opens up a whole 'nother can of speculative worms.

Addendum: There's a book title there - "The Speculative Worm"  🤣

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11 hours ago, Bob Andersson said:

Extremely good points. 

That said, if the SL2 has 36MP as well as the 15+ stop dynamic range (before any possible PDAF induced banding becomes visible) that my simplistic reading of the IMX435AQJ sensor's spec sheet indicates then I'd consider an SL2 introductory price similar to that of the original SL and about twice that of the S1R good value. If the SL2 uses any of the sensors mentioned in this thread's title then, for me, Leica has a price problem. I find the S1 uncomfortable to hold when not actually taking pictures and I don't much care for the button clutter but the difference in price between an S1 and the likely price of an SL2 would buy me the 75mm SL prime. Lenses are for life, my budget isn't unlimited and at the end of the day it's more about the images I capture although I'll concede that having nice toys is good too. 🙂

Right back at ya!  I totally agree. Far too much is made of pixel count with little regard to the cost, both in terms of $$$ and capabilities.  Bodies come and go, but glass, at least from Leica,  is forever.  

I suspect that  the value  proposition of a Leica body versus a Panasonic is on the minds of most here. I know it is on mine.  My sheer guess is that the minimum entry fee is going to be the previous asking price which puts it at double the S1R with the kit lens.  I am on the list, but I'll admit, writing the check will depend on a number of factors.  One expects a premium, but it will be a difficult sell for those of us considering the system for the first time, if for example, the price of an glass-less SL2  equals that of the S1R with a Summicron or the 24-90 zoom (let alone a fistful of Arts). 

10 hours ago, Chaemono said:

It’s all speculation about the SL2 sensor at this point. Let’s not forget the 60 MPx IMX455AQR. Only Leica insiders know and, I suspect, some technology departments of intelligence agencies in some parts of the world. 😁

 So while were on the subject, which clandestine org does Jono work for anyway? 😀

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I share the hope that Leica develops a Maestro III to pair with a reasonably sized sensor, say 36 mps, though I find it hard to believe that the SL2 will have less horsepower than the Q2. And at Photokina last year, a Leica rep said that L lenses are designed to resolve sensors in excess of 100 mps. That won't be in the SL2, we hope!, but they may well be thinking big in the future.

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On 4/15/2019 at 7:34 AM, Tailwagger said:

Given the precedent of Q heralding SL, the market  the camera will play have to play in for, presumably, four years and Leica's less than unlimited R&D budget, it is somewhat unthinkable to me that the next gen SL would have anything other than the same basic specs and hardware as the Q2.  A completely different sensor from Sony would require a completely different stack of supporting hardware and processor.  That translates to both higher R&D and production costs to what purpose?  Leica has already puts its stamp of approval on the 47MP sensor with the Q2.  If they decided it met the standard, why would the waste precious resources and energy elsewhere?

Nothing is impossible, of course. Certainly they have surprised in the past. Regardless, I'm sure whatever shows up will be extremely good to totally spectacular from an imaging perspective. Personally, I'm more concerned about the form factor, battery life, evf... oh and the price tag... than the pixel count or last half stop of DR.  There isn't any doubt in my mind around preferring Leica optics over those on offer by the other Alliance members, despite the rather sobering cost differential. The question I'm waiting to answer is whether or not I will maintain that conviction when it comes to the bodies. 

Leica's R/D budget has been supported in recent years by joint laboratories with Hauwei (unlimited funding) and Panasonic for the last couple of decades.  Some optical design is still done in-house, but product design and planning is also done in Berlin with help of outside companies.  I'm getting this info from an Luminous Landscapes (?) interview with their last CEO (the young-ish guy who was let go after a short run).  

But, the Q2 sensor is slightly different than the S1R sensor set-up.  The Q2 doesn't have a coverglass on the sensor, as it doesnt need the same sensor protection an interchangeable lens camera does.  So, the SL2 sensor/coverglass may be different altogether to better adapt M glass.  I did a test at FM Forum of the s1r vs. a7r3 with a 28 Lux, and its not that huge of a difference (if any really) in the corners wide open with the 28 Lux.  I tested last night the 50 APO, and will post it in the next few days over there.  The SL2, i bet, will have a sensor/lens (aka coverglass) that is set up diff than the s1r.  

On a side note, the s1r I rented totally killed the joy of the Q2 I just purchased.  The s1r feels like its from the future, the Q2 for some reason feels like an old dog with new tricks.   That APO L mount glass is just so solid in its renderings (aside from its MTF charts), and i've only used the 75 apo sl, still haven't seen the 35/2.  I hope someone here who now owns one can do a comparison of the 35 APO SL to the 35 Lux FLE adapted or the adapted Zeiss 35/1.4 M mount (one of Zeiss crowning achievements according to interviews of their optical engineers), or even the Sigma 40/1.4.

 

 

 

 

 

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No, Panasonic’s approach is different. They are the ‘value’ provider of L-mount bodies. It pushes Leica to look for improvements that add ‘value’ (the term can be used to mean low price or value added) in the SL2 in order to be able to justify the likely significant price premium it will charge for the next generation of the SL over these Panasonic bodies. Those who benefit are the users with lots more options at different price points. Competition can be a beautiful thing. To paraphrase Gordon Gekko ‘Competition is good, competition is right,  competition works.’  😁

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On 4/17/2019 at 6:18 PM, NRKstudio said:

Leica's R/D budget has been supported in recent years by joint laboratories with Hauwei (unlimited funding) and Panasonic for the last couple of decades.  Some optical design is still done in-house, but product design and planning is also done in Berlin with help of outside companies.

Not this again...

Every once in a while someone appoints themselves the mission to "prove" that whatever Leica does isn't Leica at all... This kind of thing appeals to conspiracy theorists (it's a personality type).

The problem with this line of thinking is that there is only one camera company that doesn't heavily rely on partnerships, consultants, and sub-contractors: Canon. Every other company buys-in shutters, sensors, viewfinders, electronics, lenses and lens components, software, etc.

Where does it all lead to in the end? "Canon is the one real camera brand, everyone else in an impostor..." Who cares? Canon make good cameras, but I prefer my Leicas.

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2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Not this again...

Every once in a while someone appoints themselves the mission to "prove" that whatever Leica does isn't Leica at all... This kind of thing appeals to conspiracy theorists (it's a personality type).

The problem with this line of thinking is that there is only one camera company that doesn't heavily rely on partnerships, consultants, and sub-contractors: Canon. Every other company buys-in shutters, sensors, viewfinders, electronics, lenses and lens components, software, etc.

Where does it all lead to in the end? "Canon is the one real camera brand, everyone else in an impostor..." Who cares? Canon make good cameras, but I prefer my Leicas.

This is extremely ignorant.   To believe partershnips don’t benefit and push product development.  I am almost a die hard Leica fan (not a fanboy, who exudes sensitivity).  Read this article by their last CEO who says it clearly the positives in collaboration and the shared R/D.

https://leicarumors.com/2017/02/03/interview-with-leica-ceo-oliver-kaltner.aspx/

he says clearly that they use design firms for product design, there’s nothing wrong with this, it only did well enough to make me spend a sum  of money on cameras and lenses within this last year that alternatively could have bought a decent car. 

 If you’ve ever worked with a top design firm, you’d see why he boasts about this.  It’s very impressive to be a part of.  

Leica doesn’t make sensors.  They make awesome optics.  They are optical designers first, not product designers or software designers.  Oliver also talks about how many software engineers they can find in Weltzlar (hint: not many).  

To think though you are buying a Leica sensor though is naive.  For cameras, you are buying a Leica experience, as they develope the whole.  For optics, you are buying a Leica design (usually).  

Also, I’ve never owned a canon.  

 

Edited by NRKstudio
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