Leica M11 wishlist? (Features)

[jkcampbell2]

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1 hour ago, fotografr said:

This whole thread has now been rendered moot as Leica have released this image of the M11 prototype featuring a 8x10 CMOS sensor that is 5000 Megapixels.

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I'm in! Anyone suggest a strap for the new 143 lb. M11? I think I'm in for a new bag too! Cheers, jc

[fotografr]

17 minutes ago, jkcampbell2 said:

I'm in! Anyone suggest a strap for the new 143 lb. M11? I think I'm in for a new bag too! Cheers, jc

I'm thinking something like a small grocery cart.

[Narsuitus]

Here is my M11 wishlist: 

1. Video
2. Auto focus
3. In-body image stabilization
4. PC flash connection (needed when hot shoe is occupied by optical viewfinder)
5. Articulating rear screen (a feature that I need)
6. USB port
7. Touch LCD screen
8. Anti-aliasing filter to avoid unwanted moiré patterns
9. Built-in electronic leveler
10. Make ISO dial easier to rotate
11. Easier access to battery and memory card when camera mounted on tripod
12. Access battery and memory card without having to remove base plate of camera
13. Make accessory battery pack for extended usage
14. Make body weather resistant and make weather resistant lenses
15. Allow use of SDHC memory cards higher than 32gb
16. Allow use of older slow-writing SDHC cards.
17. Allow use of SDHC memory cards that are lower than 1gb.
18. Include duel memory card slots
19. Add wireless local area network feature that works with Android cell phones
20. Ability to save more than one custom white balance setting
21. In addition to the mechanical shutter, add the option of using a totally silent electronic shutter
22. Increase bulb shutter speed to longer than 2-minute maximum exposure time
23. Option to eliminate mandatory noise reduction that is applied to long exposure images
24. Allow Multi-field and Spot metering patterns when using the optical finder
25. Ability to change image aspect ratio (3:2 is all that is available)
26. Offer real leather covering on body instead of fake leather
27. Allow lens aperture info to be recorded in EXIF data
28. Allow M11 shutter speed dial to rotate in the same direction as the M6
29. Make optional grid lines visible in optical finder
30. Add engraving like M-P 240 on top plate of M11

[mujk]

On 5/8/2019 at 6:28 PM, evikne said:

Thank you very much. You seem to be the only one to fully understand what I am talking about. I have tried to just leave my M10 at ISO 200, and in many situations that works fine. But if the image gets very underexposed, I still think the results are better when I raise the ISO a bit. That's why I don't think the M10 is fully "ISO invariant" (which I hope the M11 will be).

Correct. Not all cameras are ISO invariant, and this may be the case with the M10.

Somewhat simplified, in a digital camera sensor ISO is increased by increasing the gain of the analog signal amplifier that sits between the sensor and the analog to digital converter (ADC) that converts the signal to a digital format. This amplification compensates for the "underexposure" of the sensor that results from increasing the ISO setting. However, this amplification also amplifies the noise generated in the sensor, making it more visible, and reduces the dynamic range of the sensor.

The alternative is not to increase the ISO even when the sensor is "underexposed" and use "digital amplification" of the digital signal instead, as has been described in this thread. The problem here is that the amplifier itself and the ADC also cause noise, which becomes visible when amplified digitally. Only when amplifier/ADC noise is smaller than sensor noise this is not a problem and taking all pictures at base ISO a good idea. A camera with an amplifier/ADC like this is called ISO invariant. Some cameras are ISO invariant and some aren't.

[sebben]

With a list like that it sounds like you would be better served with Panasonic, Sony, Canon or Nikon 

[fotografr]

7 hours ago, Narsuitus said:

Here is my M11 wishlist: 

1. Video
2. Auto focus
3. In-body image stabilization
4. PC flash connection (needed when hot shoe is occupied by optical viewfinder)
5. Articulating rear screen (a feature that I need)
6. USB port
7. Touch LCD screen
8. Anti-aliasing filter to avoid unwanted moiré patterns
9. Built-in electronic leveler
10. Make ISO dial easier to rotate
11. Easier access to battery and memory card when camera mounted on tripod
12. Access battery and memory card without having to remove base plate of camera
13. Make accessory battery pack for extended usage
14. Make body weather resistant and make weather resistant lenses
15. Allow use of SDHC memory cards higher than 32gb
16. Allow use of older slow-writing SDHC cards.
17. Allow use of SDHC memory cards that are lower than 1gb.
18. Include duel memory card slots
19. Add wireless local area network feature that works with Android cell phones
20. Ability to save more than one custom white balance setting
21. In addition to the mechanical shutter, add the option of using a totally silent electronic shutter
22. Increase bulb shutter speed to longer than 2-minute maximum exposure time
23. Option to eliminate mandatory noise reduction that is applied to long exposure images
24. Allow Multi-field and Spot metering patterns when using the optical finder
25. Ability to change image aspect ratio (3:2 is all that is available)
26. Offer real leather covering on body instead of fake leather
27. Allow lens aperture info to be recorded in EXIF data
28. Allow M11 shutter speed dial to rotate in the same direction as the M6
29. Make optional grid lines visible in optical finder
30. Add engraving like M-P 240 on top plate of M11

I think you need a Q2.

[sblutter]

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Think very sunny day with deep shadows. 

I'm fine with 1st making sure to not blow out the highs in the exposure, then and processing for the lows.  I'll be @ around ISO 200 > 600, then lift the lows in PS's Camera Raw Filter or Curves while maintaining some true black.

Every image I spend time with is intended for print - either color or B&W.

Main thing:  have fun!

[Narsuitus]

11 hours ago, fotografr said:

I think you need a Q2.

The Leica Q2 is a fine camera but I need a digital camera that accepts my M-mount lenses.

[fotografr]

3 hours ago, Narsuitus said:

The Leica Q2 is a fine camera but I need a digital camera that accepts my M-mount lenses.

Hard to get them to autofocus.

[cp995]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb Narsuitus:

Here is my M11 wishlist: 

1. Video
2. Auto focus
3. In-body image stabilization
4. PC flash connection (needed when hot shoe is occupied by optical viewfinder)
5. Articulating rear screen (a feature that I need)
6. USB port
7. Touch LCD screen
8. Anti-aliasing filter to avoid unwanted moiré patterns
9. Built-in electronic leveler
10. Make ISO dial easier to rotate
11. Easier access to battery and memory card when camera mounted on tripod
12. Access battery and memory card without having to remove base plate of camera
13. Make accessory battery pack for extended usage
14. Make body weather resistant and make weather resistant lenses
15. Allow use of SDHC memory cards higher than 32gb
16. Allow use of older slow-writing SDHC cards.
17. Allow use of SDHC memory cards that are lower than 1gb.
18. Include duel memory card slots
19. Add wireless local area network feature that works with Android cell phones
20. Ability to save more than one custom white balance setting
21. In addition to the mechanical shutter, add the option of using a totally silent electronic shutter
22. Increase bulb shutter speed to longer than 2-minute maximum exposure time
23. Option to eliminate mandatory noise reduction that is applied to long exposure images
24. Allow Multi-field and Spot metering patterns when using the optical finder
25. Ability to change image aspect ratio (3:2 is all that is available)
26. Offer real leather covering on body instead of fake leather
27. Allow lens aperture info to be recorded in EXIF data
28. Allow M11 shutter speed dial to rotate in the same direction as the M6
29. Make optional grid lines visible in optical finder
30. Add engraving like M-P 240 on top plate of M11

Completely unrealistic for a Leica M

Better have a look at the next SL2 ...

Edited May 15, 2019 by cp995

[dkmoore]

23 hours ago, Narsuitus said:

Here is my M11 wishlist: 

1. Video
2. Auto focus
3. In-body image stabilization
4. PC flash connection (needed when hot shoe is occupied by optical viewfinder)
5. Articulating rear screen (a feature that I need)
6. USB port
7. Touch LCD screen
8. Anti-aliasing filter to avoid unwanted moiré patterns
9. Built-in electronic leveler
10. Make ISO dial easier to rotate
11. Easier access to battery and memory card when camera mounted on tripod
12. Access battery and memory card without having to remove base plate of camera
13. Make accessory battery pack for extended usage
14. Make body weather resistant and make weather resistant lenses
15. Allow use of SDHC memory cards higher than 32gb
16. Allow use of older slow-writing SDHC cards.
17. Allow use of SDHC memory cards that are lower than 1gb.
18. Include duel memory card slots
19. Add wireless local area network feature that works with Android cell phones
20. Ability to save more than one custom white balance setting
21. In addition to the mechanical shutter, add the option of using a totally silent electronic shutter
22. Increase bulb shutter speed to longer than 2-minute maximum exposure time
23. Option to eliminate mandatory noise reduction that is applied to long exposure images
24. Allow Multi-field and Spot metering patterns when using the optical finder
25. Ability to change image aspect ratio (3:2 is all that is available)
26. Offer real leather covering on body instead of fake leather
27. Allow lens aperture info to be recorded in EXIF data
28. Allow M11 shutter speed dial to rotate in the same direction as the M6
29. Make optional grid lines visible in optical finder
30. Add engraving like M-P 240 on top plate of M11

www.canon.com      

[jto555]

Sensor cleaning on startup! 

[fotografr]

On 5/14/2019 at 3:26 PM, mujk said:

Correct. Not all cameras are ISO invariant, and this may be the case with the M10.

Somewhat simplified, in a digital camera sensor ISO is increased by increasing the gain of the analog signal amplifier that sits between the sensor and the analog to digital converter (ADC) that converts the signal to a digital format. This amplification compensates for the "underexposure" of the sensor that results from increasing the ISO setting. However, this amplification also amplifies the noise generated in the sensor, making it more visible, and reduces the dynamic range of the sensor.

The alternative is not to increase the ISO even when the sensor is "underexposed" and use "digital amplification" of the digital signal instead, as has been described in this thread. The problem here is that the amplifier itself and the ADC also cause noise, which becomes visible when amplified digitally. Only when amplifier/ADC noise is smaller than sensor noise this is not a problem and taking all pictures at base ISO a good idea. A camera with an amplifier/ADC like this is called ISO invariant. Some cameras are ISO invariant and some aren't.

The discussion about whether the M10 is ISO invariant motivated me to run a simple test. The color chart below was shot at ISO 6400, 1/12th@f4.0, then at ISO 200 using the same shutter speed and aperture (in other words, underexposing 5 stops). I just used exposure slider in post to bring up the ISO 200 image. To my eye, grain is not an issue in any of the images but there does seem to be a bit of shift in some of the colors.

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Edited May 16, 2019 by fotografr

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Brent - The second image appears half a stop brighter on my iPad, but otherwise barely distinguishable.

[fotografr]

One more M10 invariant test: This is more extreme than the color checker shots. The first image was shot at ISO 25,000. The second image was shot at ISO 200 using the same f stop and shutter speed, then adjusted in post. With the adjusted image, grain is much more evident and banding is quite evident. The conclusion I would reach is that when using the M10, better results are obtained by shooting at the higher ISO setting and letting the in-camera processing remove the noise and banding as opposed to shooting at the native ISO and adjusting in post.

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[fotografr]

On 5/8/2019 at 7:56 AM, evikne said:

I have never used anything else than manual exposure, so I haven't thought of it this way. I would just set the desired exposure time and aperture, and that's it. As long as there isn't any chance the picture can be overexposed at base ISO, it isn't necessary to do anything else. Could it be any easier than that?

In my experience, this technique is only effective within about a five stop range, the reason being that the exposure slider only allows that much adjustment in post. I supposed one could move from the exposure slider to the curves adjustment, but then the image can begin to look pretty wonky.

[fotografr]

On 5/8/2019 at 7:06 AM, evikne said:

It has nothing to do with Auto ISO. I have read about this in another forum. Some new Sony sensors work this way, and maybe some others. All image data is recorded at base ISO, so there is no reason to use a higher ISO, because lifting the exposure in PP will give the same result, with the same amount of noise. 

I would love to see this in Leica cameras too.

This might not matter much to some people, but when an image is shot in such a way that the exposure needs to be adjusted upward four or five stops in post, the image preview in the LCD is nearly black.

[evikne]

5 minutes ago, fotografr said:

In my experience, this technique is only effective within about a five stop range, the reason being that the exposure slider only allows that much adjustment in post. I supposed one could move from the exposure slider to the curves adjustment, but then the image can begin to look pretty wonky.

This was how I wish I could do it, if the M11 becomes fully ISO invariant. But I sometimes do it already with my M10 when there is no fear for too much underexposure.

[evikne]

7 minutes ago, fotografr said:

This might not matter much to some people, but when an image is shot in such a way that the exposure needs to be adjusted upward four or five stops in post, the image preview in the LCD is nearly black.

It wouldn't matter much in an M11-D 🙂

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[fotografr]

35 minutes ago, evikne said:

This was how I wish I could do it, if the M11 becomes fully ISO invariant. But I sometimes do it already with my M10 when there is no fear for too much underexposure.

Playing around with adjustments other than just the exposure slider, this is the result I've been able to obtain with a shot made at ISO 200, but using an aperture of f 19 and shutter speed of 1/500th. The adjustment is about six stops. I also applied NR to reduce the noise and banding.

The top image is the original. The bottom after a lot of post processing adjustment.

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