s1 vs s1r vs SL

[tom0511]

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Hi there. SL user here who does like the SL system (except the heft and prices of some lenses).

I see some of you guys added a S1/S1r to your SL system.

My I ask:

Do you plan the new body to replace your SL?

Where do you see the important benefit for you compared to SL after using the Pana for some days now?

Which (S1r vs S1) did you choose and why?

Just curious.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb tom0511:

Hi there. SL user here who does like the SL system (except the heft and prices of some lenses).

I see some of you guys added a S1/S1r to your SL system.

My I ask:

Do you plan the new body to replace your SL?

Where do you see the important benefit for you compared to SL after using the Pana for some days now?

Which (S1r vs S1) did you choose and why?

Just curious.

S1, because high pixel density necessitates flipping the image chip around to be illuminated from the back. Otherwise the larger number of pixels on the same sized sensor means that more and more area of the silicon is covered by the connecting wiring above it, resulting in less and less light reaching the photodiodes. Panasonic forwent the BSI technology in its 47 MPx sensor for ‘waveguides’ to direct light around the dense ‘wiring mesh’ and allow it to reach the pixels more effectively this way. It sounds complicated. I suspect, it’s due to costs because manufacturing sensors with the photo receptive layer facing the light is expensive. The SL2 with a rumored price between €7,500 to €9,000 better use a BSI sensor.

The SL sensor has certain advantages over the S1 sensor and the other way around. I sold my SL because I had promised it to someone who wanted to use it and he in turn promised me that I would be the first to get the SL2, whenever it is released. In the meantime, I will use the S1. It produces colors and tones that remind me of the T. I really like them. If Leica goes for a Sony sensor in the SL2, I hope they don’t adapt the Sony color science like the CL likely has. The files require more work in post to make the tones look nice IMO.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Chaemono

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[thighslapper]

My S1R is an SL upgrade pending Leica getting round to releasing the SL2.

If the SL2 just has more pixels and not a lot else, I may just stick with the S1R.

Don't underestimate the advantages that IBIS gives in use of the non OIS Leica SL lenses .... and better performance over the 3 stops in lens stabilisation that Leica gives. Doing mostly landscape, a tilting screen is a great help plus there are a number of S1R features and controls that are more useful than I imagined. There are fewer downsides than I anticipated .... once I had grouped most of the needed items to the customisable Q menu (a single button) the annoyance of the extensive and complex menus options has been mostly negated. 

 

[helged]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

S1, because high pixel density necessitates flipping the image chip around to be illuminated from the back. Otherwise the larger number of pixels on the same sized sensor means that more and more area of the silicon is covered by the connecting wiring above it, resulting in less and less light reaching the photodiodes. Panasonic forwent the BSI technology in its 47 MPx sensor for ‘waveguides’ to direct light around the dense ‘wiring mesh’ and allow it to reach the pixels more effectively this way. It sounds complicated. I suspect, it’s due to costs because manufacturing sensors with the photo receptive layer facing the light is expensive. The SL2 with a rumored price between €7,500 to €9,000 better use a BSI sensor.

The SL sensor has certain advantages over the S1 sensor and the other way around. I sold my SL because I had promised it to someone who wanted to use it and he in turn promised me that I would be the first to get the SL2, whenever it is released. In the meantime, I will use the S1. It produces colors and tones that remind me of the T. I really like them. If Leica goes for a Sony sensor in the SL2, I hope they don’t adapt the Sony color science like the CL likely has. The files require more work in post to make the tones look nice IMO.

+1. The CL colours, and a rather aggressive cut-off in/near highlights, were not to my liking (now sold). I really like the SL - it is on par with my liking of the M9 years back (I dont have the M9 any more, but I do love the infrared rendering of the M8, a body that I still use... ).

Anyway, the S1R is on the way - after some playing I guess I will end up with either S1R or SL2, possibly with the SL as backup, as the FF-body. And with longer Sigma lenses (hopefully) coming, I will stick to the L-mount, so Nikon bodues/lenses will go. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

S1, because high pixel density necessitates flipping the image chip around to be illuminated from the back. Otherwise the larger number of pixels on the same sized sensor means that more and more area of the silicon is covered by the connecting wiring above it, resulting in less and less light reaching the photodiodes. Panasonic forwent the BSI technology in its 47 MPx sensor for ‘waveguides’ to direct light around the dense ‘wiring mesh’ and allow it to reach the pixels more effectively this way. It sounds complicated. I suspect, it’s due to costs because manufacturing sensors with the photo receptive layer facing the light is expensive. The SL2 with a rumored price between €7,500 to €9,000 better use a BSI sensor.

The SL sensor has certain advantages over the S1 sensor and the other way around. I sold my SL because I had promised it to someone who wanted to use it and he in turn promised me that I would be the first to get the SL2, whenever it is released. In the meantime, I will use the S1. It produces colors and tones that remind me of the T. I really like them. If Leica goes for a Sony sensor in the SL2, I hope they don’t adapt the Sony color science like the CL likely has. The files require more work in post to make the tones look nice IMO.

CL colours are amongst the easiest to handle of all Leica cameras I have experience of. Unlike for instance the M240.

[Chaemono]

vor 56 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

CL colours are amongst the easiest to handle of all Leica cameras I have experience of. Unlike for instance the M240.

Only for those who can make their own profiles. I still struggle with skin tones.

Edit - take the first picture in this link, for example: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-vsMnz6/i-fBH2NBg. In order to make the skin tones look nice, I adjusted the colors in the LR calibration panel (the panel that is at the end when one scrolls down). The color of the Soviet flag is probably no longer accurate, I believe (I didn't remember the exact color).

Edited April 8, 2019 by Chaemono
Forgot to add an example

[jaapv]

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That's a Sony shot? The CL would have saturated the flag a bit more. However, the colour specification of the CL Bayer filter is almost certainly not Sony. Leica always specifies their own colour, which is developed from the old Kodak technology.

[Chaemono]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

That's a Sony shot? The CL would have saturated the flag a bit more. However, the colour specification of the CL Bayer filter is almost certainly not Sony. Leica always specifies their own colour, which is developed from the old Kodak technology.

It's a CL shot. Okay, this could make sense. Manufacturers buy the image sensors externally, at least the majority must because Sony supplies around half the market, but then specify their own Bayer filter to differentiate through color science. 

I did the following in LR to get the CL skin tones right in the above two shots of the link. If I increase saturation more, the face turns red.

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[jaapv]

Well, I'm not very good at Lightroom, being used to ACR, but when I get a new camera, the first thing I do is pull out the Colorchecker Passport and make a number of camera profiles: Sun, Shadow, Tungsten (halogen) and Dual-illumnant for instance. It takes only a few minutes and makes life so much easier. For difficult light (noon in the tropics for instance) I will make a separate camera profile per shoot.

Nowadays Adobe have a large palette of camera profiles as well.

[ron777]

3 hours ago, thighslapper said:

My S1R is an SL upgrade pending Leica getting round to releasing the SL2.

If the SL2 just has more pixels and not a lot else, I may just stick with the S1R.

Don't underestimate the advantages that IBIS gives in use of the non OIS Leica SL lenses .... and better performance over the 3 stops in lens stabilisation that Leica gives. Doing mostly landscape, a tilting screen is a great help plus there are a number of S1R features and controls that are more useful than I imagined. There are fewer downsides than I anticipated .... once I had grouped most of the needed items to the customisable Q menu (a single button) the annoyance of the extensive and complex menus options has been mostly negated. 

 

I agree with the above.  

IBIS is a big deal, and now owning both the Sony a7rIII and the S1R, I can truthfully say that the S1R's IBIS is far superior to that of the Sony.  The SL and 24-90 Vario-Elmar with OIS combination does not even come close to the effectiveness of the S1R's IBIS. 

So, for myself, not only is the S an upgrade, it is a replacement for the SL.  As for any upcoming SL2, I would be immensely surprised to find it sporting the bounty of options afforded by the Panasonic.  For myself, the "Leica Look" has always been a product of the glass, the body/sensor being secondary.  And to be honest, I am no longer enthralled by the elusive search for that look, which is subtle at best.  That said, now that Leica glass is compatible with the S series, I'm not certain what I will do with my SL, but I doubt that there will be an SL2 in my future.

Edited April 8, 2019 by ron777

[darylgo]

My S1R has been a fun excursion into higher MP and IBIS but it is not compelling enough to make the transition.  Part of the decision is my familiarity with the SL and unfamiliarity with the S1R, but there are intangibles that I find with the SL that make it the GOAT.  As a landscape shooter primarily I find stitching to be hugely superior to any sensor so far developed.  Stitching is not a panacea but I don't find I need anything higher than 24MP for the majority of shots.  The M9 at 18MP was for me the leap into "I can live with this forever", the M240 and SL gaining improvements in sensor but mostly ergonomics/haptics.  The viewfinder of the S1R is amazing, but the SL is great also and good enough for my usage.  To sum it up the SL is such a great camera and it  continues to image exceptionally well.   

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I have yet to receive my S1R. When I do it will be a compliment to my SL's not a replacement. The SL is my favourite "big" camera. I often print big (a1 or larger) so the resolution is useful for me. I will pair my S1R with the wonderful Leica optics and the specialist Canon lenses I have (T/S and macro) via the Novoflex adaptor. I may even look at a 60-600 Sigma later on when the Sigma adaptor becomes available. I would like to upgrade to an SL2 when it comes out however I don't think Leica will make it without mandatory LENR and so I won't be a purchaser if it has that. The S1R will spend much of its life on a tripod so I don't care about high ISO's and will appreciate the flippy screen. OTOH I'm looking forward to shooting the 50SL with IBIS..

To be able to utilise my T/S lenses on a high res sensor I have been using Sony bodies and I have many FE lenses now. All of them will go when the S1R arrives. Love the files. Hate the cameras. I will build a small kit around my Nikon Z7 for travelling light, plus my RX1RII (unless Leica surprise with a 50mm Q2) and keep my X1D for when things get serious (  ). Apart from the SL bodies I will likely divest myself of anything under 40MP, although selling my M10 and CL will be difficult. Where the lower resolution is sufficient I have not found a place in my shooting envelope where the SL isn't enough camera.

Gordon

[Chaemono]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb tom0511:

Hi there. SL user here who does like the SL system (except the heft and prices of some lenses).

I see some of you guys added a S1/S1r to your SL system.

My I ask:

Do you plan the new body to replace your SL?

See Steve Huff’s high ISO comparisons SL vs. S1. The S1 has lower noise and better color at high ISO but look at how it ‘blows’ Highlights or doesn’t retain Highlight detail as well as the SL. This applies in lower ISO, too. The SL does better in high contrast scenes, captures cleaner Highlight details. And at ISO 800 and below the noise and color advantages of the S1 aren’t as pronounced. Besides, the S1 is about -1 EV vs. the SL, so ISO 800 on the SL is ISO 1600 on the S1. Steve Huff doesn’t mention this. Other than this, his comments about these ‘new’ 24 and 47 MPx sensors (in his Q2 review) are spot on. They do tend to blow Highlights easily. The files aren’t as malleable.

What we need, therefore, is an SL2 with, ideally, high ISO and color performance close to the S1 (although with IBIS high ISO becomes less necessary) but with much better handling of high dynamic range situations, and malleable files. I believe, Leica knows this and this is why they’ll likely use a different sensor in the SL2 than the Q2 or S1R (I know the noise to DR charts look different for the two but it must be due to in-camera processing. The sensor specs are basically the same).

Here are the links to the reviews.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/06/the-panasonic-s1-vs-leica-sl-high-iso-test/

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/07/the-panasonic-s1-with-leica-m-lenses-canon-ef-as-well/

[Alistairm]

It is very early days for me so far, but my initial impressions of the S1R are extremely positive. 

The EVF is astounding - essentially perfect in the light conditions I’ve used the camera in so far. The controls are easily laid out and accessible. The autofocus is excellent and the camera plays very nicely with my L glass, including the 90-280, which is what I was potentially the most excited about using it with. 

I like the colours straight out of camera, especially the reds. It does seem a little prone to clip highlights. Nothing dramatic though. Monochrom live view works really well. 

Size and weight wise the S1R is remarkably similar to the SL in use. 

It is testament to how good the SL is that the S1R feels incremental rather than revolutionary. Equally, it is testament to the quality of the S1R that it feels “Leica like” in terms of experience. If the L Mount alliance continues to produce cameras that play so nicely in the Leica lens ecosystem we are on to a good thing. 

[Bob Andersson]

Photons to Photos now has the dynamic range of the S1 as well as the S1R available for comparison here. Bear in mind the usual caveat about the ISO being plotted according to the camera setting rather than the measured ISO.

That the older SL sensor trails the Lumix models was to be expected, perhaps, but I am surprised that those fatter pixels in the S1 don't translate into deeper wells/better dynamic range when compared to the S1R over most of the range. 🤔

Edit: The DxO data for the S1 is now available - I've referred to it in this forum post.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Bob Andersson
Added a link to another forum post.

[tom0511]

Interesting. Besides DR there is on the other side the question of moiree which should be better with more MP and more problematic with the 24 MP sensors.

Does the S1 have an AA filter like Nikon 24 MP Z6, and the S1R not?

[Bob Andersson]

21 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Does the S1 have an AA filter like Nikon 24 MP Z6, and the S1R not?

According to Imaging Resource (here) the S1 doesn't have an anti-aliasing filter either.

[Chaemono]

Neither the S1 nor the S1R have an AA filter. Very fine details in the distance will trigger some moiree with the S1, therefore. If you pull back the Highlights in the S1 DNG in #9 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/295518-s1-s1r-snr-vs-tonal-range-vs-color-sensitivity-question/?tab=comments#comment-3713722, you will see it on the jacket. But it’s an extreme situation. I didn’t notice anywhere else so far. If the S1 had an AA filter I wouldn’t have bought it to use with SL lenses. 

 

 

[Chaemono]

I posted a couple of links to M10 and S1 RAW files to compare malleability of files and treatment of Highlights in high contrast situations. I will do the same comparison with the SL and use the same lens just to check for treatment of Highlights, not for malleability of files. In the latter, the four year old SL sensor is equally bad as these new Panasonic sensors.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/295240-s1r-s1-leica-lens-image-thread/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-3721931

 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

Well, I've had my camera for two days. I'm very pleased. Spectacular EVF. Lovely shutter sound and you can turn off LENR. It also seems all my SL lenses focus faster with this processor. The level of detail with the SL lenses is epic.

This week I'll do some tests against my Z7, A7R3 and X1D. Things look good so far. 

Gordon