Thought processes of others from someone who has owned both an M and a Q and wants back into the Leica world

[Richard Link]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Would appreciate some advice from those who perhaps have gone through this thought process already. I am just an amateur photography enthusiast. Over the past 5 years or so, I've owned serially both a Leica M240 with a 35 mm F2 lens (only) and the original Leica Q. I really love the "nothing extra" experience of both cameras and the build quality and portability. I had my M240 for longer and shot roughly 3x more photos with it (several thousand).  That camera was my grail camera for many years and was very satisfying to use. I'll admit, however, that while I loved the deliberate manual focus rangefinder experience 75% of the time, I found that I missed spontaneous shots and found that frustrating about 25% of the time. It was thicker, heavier and bulkier than I ideally expected (but not by much) and I never changed lenses as I found the 35 mm so versatile and the lenses were so prohibitively expensive. I used the camera mostly for street photography and travel, which are things that it seems to excel at, as well as hiking. Ultimately (and with some trepidation), I decided to sell the camera and lens to purchase a Q in 2016. I loved that camera as well and appreciated the autofocus more than ever although the experience was somewhat less "special." After a few years, I decided I wanted to do more studio type of product photography and sold the Q to buy a fuij GFX50s (another story for another day). 

Looking back over the output from these cameras, I can say that they were wonderful. Statistically (via lightroom), I seem to have successfully captured a modestly higher proportion of "great" shots with the M240 than the Q although I'm sure I missed a lot of great shots with the M (no way to quantify that). 

So here's the question, particularly for those new M10 owners: Lets assume that you weren't planning to take advantage of the interchangeable lens capability of your M (are there any of you out there?). Did you buy the M10 for the deliberate manual focus rangefinder experience or the "specialness" of the M system or for some other reason? Do you regret that decision now that the Q2 is out (or coming out) which offers a higher resolution sensor, autofocus, etc.? It seems somewhat predictable that the next M camera will have the higher resolution sensor which will likely seriously impact resale value for the M10. Obviously the cost of an M10 and a 35 lens dwarfs the Q2 by several thousand dollars - do you regret that or are you still all in on your M10 purchase?  Are any of you contemplating switching to the Q2 from the M10 or is that antithetical to why you went with the M in the first place?

I realize this is a free form question but I'm torn between the two options and hate to have history repeat itself...

Thanks in advance.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Richard Link
Forgot to add one sentance.

[andyturk]

I bought an M10-P this year as a (long overdue) replacement for my M8. Before that, I shot with an Epson R-D1, which I loved. There's something about the rangefinder experience that I really enjoy. While travelling, I carried a 28mm and a 50mm in my bag. I could switch lenses, but mostly used the 28mm because of the crop factor.

IMO, after a certain point, resolution doesn't matter much. My Epson was only a 6MP camera and I made more "keepers" with it than them M8 which is 10MP. The M10's 24MP still blows me away... and the Q2 seems like science fiction.

We like to think of these digital cameras as heirloom quality instruments, but in the end, they're still consumer electronics. They've got firmware that won't be updated forever, clock batteries and capacitors that wear out, and a lot of single-source electronic parts that make repairing them difficult over time. Don't worry about resale value other than to understand it only goes down quickly.

Lenses, on the other hand, *are* like heirlooms. I purchased most of my M-mount lenses before Leica announced the M8 and everyone thought the company was doomed. Leica glass was cheap then, and even now, after 15 years of not-too-careful use, I could (in some cases) double my money on the used market were I to sell a lens today (not that I would).

The Q2 is a very interesting camera, but somehow doesn't interest me as much. Not sure why.

[dancook]

I'm just thinking I've had the M10 and sold it, I had the Q and now I have the Q2.

Now there are reasons I prefer the Q over the M10 - it seems all down to my lack of experience with manual focus + rangefinder combo

- I like to photography people candidly, the M10 manual focusing with range finder can take some getting used to - so I spend longer focusing feeling like a lemon.

- I like photographing live music, the M10 if I recall was harder to focus in low light as it was more difficult to see, not sure how well I remember that.

- I found it more difficult to photograph people walking towards me during weddings, that takes practice I never had 

I realise now I'd like to have given it time to learn - it just became a necessity to sell as I needed the funds to start off my photography business with gear that I'd need.

The problem also though whilst I had a small array of fast prime m-lenses, 24 1.4, 35 1.4, 50 1.4, 90 2.0 - ideally I'd just want something to complement the Q. But the longer you go on a range finder the less you make use of that lovely large OVF, so feeling like it's going to waste. 

 

It's tricky  I like the Q2 now because I can crop to cover 50mm as long as I don't go too high ISO, 1600/3200 is fine

Edited April 7, 2019 by dancook

[Nick Milner]

I purchased a Q2 and was waiting in line for stock to catch up. And waiting. Aaaand waiting. In the end I cancelled the order and bought a used M10 instead and I absolutely love it. I already had a couple of great lenses as I already owned an M6, and maybe it's the specialness of the M6 that's stayed with me on the M10, but I don't regret cancelling the Q2 order one bit. I'm glad that I have the ability to use a 28mm lens if necessary, and then swap right back to my beloved 50mm Summicron. I don't think it's a sure bet that the M11 will have a higher resolution sensor either (might be wrong, who knows).

For you though, if the manual focus of the M240 eventually caused you to go elsewhere, I don't see how you're going to be happy with an M10 in the long run.

[Rhyman]

I have had an M10 for over 2 years. I just got the Q2. I am in the process of writing a review to compare them. You can read the review at travelisbeautiful.com in a week or 2. Subscribe and you will get an email when I publish it. 

The summary is this. The Q2 is a fantastic camera, but so is the M10. The Q is more automatic. The M is manual and tactical. It makes you slow down and think about your shot. To use the M right, you need to become one with the camera. To use the Q right, you can simply point and shoot, often with good results.

 

Here is a sample images of the Q2. Look for the full review soon with many more images.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Bentham]

If you're constantly chasing "better" then your question is moot and you're bound to repeat yourself in the future. The 24MP present in the M10 is plenty enough. Stop kidding yourself that you need "more", because you don't.

[Nick Milner]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

That's what she said.

 

 

(sorry.)

[bbran33]

I have had a M9, a Q and a M10-P. I love the look of the M9 files, the ease of the Q and the hit-rate/look of the M10 files. 

I sold the M9 and the Q. Why? Because the Q is 28mm and isn't as flattering to shoot people with. If I'm going to have a lot of $$$ sunk into a camera, my wife better look outstanding in pictures, or I'll start hearing....(if we sold that camera, we could buy XYZ) 🤣. And 35mm or 50mm is better for this. Partially kidding, but for me, most of my photos are peope and don't want to be on 28mm all the time. 

The hardest sale is my M9. That's because I love the look of the CCD sensor. At least I think I do? So hard to put finger on it, and maybe its imaginary. 

But I've had the M10-p for a week now and man, I had so many keepers from my weekend family outings compared to any other camera ever because of the low light capabilities and shooting indoors. 

Shooting family and friends and people in general on 28mm is cool sometimes, but more like a novelty for me.  Kind of that neat, funky , wide angle shot that's cool to have sometimes. Everyone has their focal lengths they love but 35mm for me is great general , and 50mm for portrait. Of course 85mm is better, but when you're in the leica world owning all these lenses isn't always a possibility

But, all of us here have had times that we are travelling and someone sees you taking a picture of your wife and kids with the M, and says "Hey ! Why don't you get in the picture with your family, here give me the camera and I'll take the photo! " And you are all like," Well its manual focus, and complicated, blahs, blah.... and if I hand this expensive of an object to a stranger I'll be making grimacing faces in the photos anyways when they decide not to use neck strap I told them to use." So yes, the Q , or any automatic is better for that situation! 

 

Hope I helped, or maybe didn't. That's why I can never decide what camera to have either! 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by bbran33

[mike3996]

I got myself my first M about 3 months ago and now I'm also considering if the Q that I have shot and loved 18+ months is useless to me. It suddenly feels so "digital", so gadgety, a piece of electronic.

 

Who knew, when you have to focus the lens yourself and carefully consider the exposure, you bond with the camera unlike any automatical camera! And it's true that binding your wealth into M lenses is a much better idea than binding it to digital camera bodies.

[jeff_m]

Sounds like you loved both cameras so whatever you chose you’ll be happy with. The dealers I have talked to say that the “M” owners that buy the “Q” series are getting them as a 2nd camera/backup. For most the “M” is the main camera. I’m the same way. I love the whole package that is a “M” camera. If I never changed lenses again the M10 is still my camera. Is something bigger and better going to come along someday? Sure. I don’t judge cameras on resell value, I judge them by if they help me do the work that I want to do now. Your chasing your tail. Pick one and be happy. Either way it’s a Leica😀

[StilettodudeQ]

I have both a Q and M10, and find them to be different animals.  The Q is as good or better than anything in its class (automatic, relatively thought-free, if you want it), and can be the first camera you pick up for spontaneous situations.  Just a short time ago, I stuck the camera out my front door to shoot a violent downpour (complete with tornado concerns).  I doubt I could have been as spontaneous with my M10.  The M10 provides a difficult-to-describe opportunity to actually think about your photograph.  It's intangible, but very much a part of the photography experience for many of us.  I consider myself extremely fortunate to have both.  I have never considered getting rid of either, since they are, in my opinion, very complementary.

I echo Rhyman's thoughts on this subject.

Sandy

[Paulus]

I had an M6 and a Minilux, still have it. The minilux is a wonderful camera with great results. But it was not an M6. The minilux does everything automatic but the M6 kept me going in developing my photography, sourcing for new answers. The minilux was a steady ,always the same answer and it had a bad viewfinder. It was very practical but it did not satisfy my need for making better pictures. 

Now I have an M 10 and it feels the same as the M6. 

Although the minilux is not an Q2 ( the pixels can be the same ), the autofocus/automatic make it a kind of Minilux to me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fotografr]

I'll start by admitting my bias. I've been an M shooter for nearly 35 years, starting with the M3ds, then going through the M6, MP, M7, M8, MM, M240 and now the M10. During that time, I've been occasionally seduced by the appeal of automation and have owned the X1, X Vario, CL and Q. I always end up going back to My M, partly for sheer enjoyment (I love rangefinder shooting) and partly because of the amazing quality of the M lenses. If street shooting is what appeals to you, the M can easily be everything the Q is. I think most street shooters would agree that a typical comfort range is between 5' and 12'. If you fit your M10 with a 28mm and set the aperture at f/5.6, you can use the dof scale to have everything in focus between 5' and 12'. The high ISO performance is so good now you can easily set it to get a fast enough shutter speed that you won't need the anti-shake/vibration reduction technology. The image quality from the 24MP sensor affords considerable freedom to crop (I'll post an example below). Using the M10 in this way gives you pretty much all the characteristics you're likely looking for with the Q.

It sounds like you're a lens minimalist, and you can easily work with two or three lenses for the M10. The 90mm Elmarit is one of the best M lenses ever made and a non-coded version can be readily found on ebay for under $1000. Same with the 28mm Elmarit, which is also a fantastic lens. One trade off in going with the M10 is that you don't have the macro capability unless you purchase a macro adapter or a fairly expensive macro lens. Again, however, the IQ of the M10 is so good you can crop significantly (as I did below).

Image quality is important to me, but so is the image making process. I want to be a participant, not just the camera holder. I don't enjoy using a camera that does most of my thinking so IMHO it's no contest. The M10 wins over the Q.

Below: Original (top) and Cropped (bottom) taken with M10 & 90mm Elmarit, ISO 1600.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited April 15, 2019 by fotografr

[robodocx]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone's thoughtful input on this question. It has been very enlightening. After reading the posts here and some soul searching, I decided to bite the bullet, cancel my Q2 order and order a preowned M10. Looking forward to getting the camera and going back to the deliberate photo style that I so enjoyed with my M240. 

[Paulus]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb robodocx:

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone's thoughtful input on this question. It has been very enlightening. After reading the posts here and some soul searching, I decided to bite the bullet, cancel my Q2 order and order a preowned M10. Looking forward to getting the camera and going back to the deliberate photo style that I so enjoyed with my M240. 

Welcome to the forum!

[analog-digital]

@Richard Link

If you like/love the basics go for a much cheaper M8.

[fotografr]

5 hours ago, analog-digital said:

@Richard Link

If you like/love the basics go for a much cheaper M8.

I enjoyed my M8 when I had it, but I'd never want to go back to the IR/UV filters on all my lenses, the bulk of the body, clunky shutter and the poor high ISO performance compared to the M10. In my opinion, the M10 is a camera one can live with for a long, long time without feeling the need to get something better.

[analog-digital]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb fotografr:

I enjoyed my M8 when I had it, but I'd never want to go back to the IR/UV filters on all my lenses, the bulk of the body, clunky shutter and the poor high ISO performance compared to the M10. In my opinion, the M10 is a camera one can live with for a long, long time without feeling the need to get something better.

I have 2 M8's. On one I have NO IR/UV filter. And it works................. No black irritation color problem. I think media (internet) pushing this "problem" to an high level.....

[Jeff S]

12 hours ago, robodocx said:

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone's thoughtful input on this question. It has been very enlightening. After reading the posts here and some soul searching, I decided to bite the bullet, cancel my Q2 order and order a preowned M10. Looking forward to getting the camera and going back to the deliberate photo style that I so enjoyed with my M240. 

And you decided to change your name from the opening post, too?  

Jeff

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Richard Link]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

And you decided to change your name from the opening post, too?  

Jeff

Good point. Not sure how that happened. Must have a duplicate account that my phone logged into. Have to figure out how to delete that one.