The M10 massive loss in resell value unprecedented?

[Paulus]

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Gavbo:

Couple of examples from the same dealer in Hong Kong. Stock level may play a part on their pricing but generally seeing the same trends for other dealers too.

https://www.mkkcamera.com/leica-m9-ccd-black-digital-rangefinder-camera-871/

https://www.mkkcamera.com/leica-m240-cmos-10771-silver-digital-rangefinder-camera-146/

I don't know if Hong Kong is influenced by the Chinese market. I know some traders in The Netherlands who trade with this market and their prices are way higher than normal prices in the Netherlands. I don't know if they have a lot of collectors in Hong Kong who drive up the prices of the M9. In the picture, I see a beautiful Black M9 . ...But only one... as you say: Stock level could drive up the price , but only if there is a demand. 

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[fotografr]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

They came down several hundred dollars on average in the prior year (confirmed by two dealers), on both sales and trades. Haven’t inquired lately.

Jeff

I've been seeing them listed on eBay for slightly over $4000 in excellent condition. A year ago they were in the low $3000s.

[Jeff S]

Maybe, but eBay vs dealers, and actual sales vs asking prices.

Jeff

[Gavbo]

8 hours ago, Paulus said:

I don't know if Hong Kong is influenced by the Chinese market. I know some traders in The Netherlands who trade with this market and their prices are way higher than normal prices in the Netherlands. I don't know if they have a lot of collectors in Hong Kong who drive up the prices of the M9. In the picture, I see a beautiful Black M9 . ...But only one... as you say: Stock level could drive up the price , but only if there is a demand. 

Funny you say that, I mainly trade in the Chinese used Market. China prices are around 15 to 20% higher than Hong Kong.

Definitely a demand for (new sensor) M9 with mint condition M9-p going for top price. One client who initially sold his M9 for an M240 for it's faster speed and low ISO performance jumped for an M10 (for the same reason) is looking to re-purchase an M9 for the kodak feel together with his M10.

The M10 is known to render old classic glasses too sharp, losing a lot of the characters that made them classic originally, including the 35mm 8 elements this is another reason driving up the demands for M9''s too.

 

 

 

[Paulus]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Gavbo:

.

The M10 is known to render old classic glasses too sharp, losing a lot of the characters that made them classic originally, including the 35mm 8 elements this is another reason driving up the demands for M9''s too.

 

 

 

I wonder how the M 10 does that? The old glass stays as sharp as before? Is there something in the software which makes it look sharper? 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Paulus

[farnz]

4 hours ago, Gavbo said:

...

The M10 is known to render old classic glasses too sharp, losing a lot of the characters that made them classic originally ...

This is the first time I've heard this mentioned so would you explain why you say "is known to", ie where and how this has been determined please?  I use a number of classic lenses with my M10 (refer to the "The view through older glass" thread) and it's not something I've ever noticed.

Is this perhaps more a statement about CMOS versus CCD sensors?

Pete.

[Paulus]

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vor 1 Minute schrieb farnz:

This is the first time I've heard this mentioned so would you explain why you say "is known to", ie where and how this has been determined please?  I use a number of classic lenses with my M10 (refer to the "The view through older glass" thread) and it's not something I've ever noticed.

Is this perhaps more a statement about CMOS versus CCD sensors?

Pete.

Actually, that is what I wanted to asked too Pete, because I did not see any difference with my old glass. The Elmar 90 from 1936 still looks the same...also my other old glass.

[Gavbo]

4 hours ago, Paulus said:

I wonder how the M 10 does that? The old glass stays as sharp as before? Is there something in the software which makes it look sharper? 

The old lens's characteristics is reduced vs an ASPH lens on the M10. This is the same feeling shared in our local photo group too.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Gavbo

[Rus]

The idea that M10 renders old lenses in a way that's closer to how modern lenses draw seems to be an idea that was floated in some Chinese-speaking Leica users circles. I've heard this mentioned at length from a photography / photo-gear chat show from Hong Kong. There were expressions of frustration in this regard, as some seem to think that this "phenomenon" much dilutes the "flavour" of old lenses. 

I've not, however, found this view echoed much elsewhere just yet. 

And it is a bit unclear, however, whether this notion pertains more to the rendering of the OOF areas, or to the sharpness of the focused areas, or, for that matter, just to certain tendencies in colour rendering. 

I don't see how the M10 can somehow "alter" the ways the optical formula of old lenses renders an image, not to any easily observable extent anyway. I certainly don't see how the M10 can somehow distinguish old lenses from modern ones to execute any targeted "enhancement", whether electronically or physically. Neither do I see the commercial incentive for doing this. 

But if it is about sharpness or colour rendering, on the other hand, there are certainly multiple factors in the algorism that may contribute to some like effects. But again, I don't see why Leica would want to do this from a commercial standpoint. 

 

- To add: There are views that pixel level optimisation of the sensor's microlenses may help lessen the unwanted effects of loss of resolution. This might be what's behind the idea of M10 rendering old lenses sharper. But in this case, it sounds more like the M10 allowing old lenses to perform to their full optical capability rather than making them seemingly sharper than they are. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Rus

[adan]

1 hour ago, Rus said:

I don't see how the M10 can somehow "alter" the ways the optical formula of old lenses renders an image, not to any easily observable extent anyway. I certainly don't see how the M10 can somehow distinguish old lenses from modern ones to execute any targeted "enhancement", whether electronically or physically. Neither do I see the commercial incentive for doing this.

You are quite right.

The idea that the M10 "improves" the sharpness of old lenses is BS from minds that are simply - uninformed - about the "architecture" of imaging.

Old lenses had that quality all along - it was just masked for years by 1) the diffusing effect of gelatin film, and 2) once digital came along, perhaps lower megapixel resolutions with the M8/9.

The M10's out-of-the-camera global image contrast curve is steeper and darker than, say, the M240's, and as people who know what they're doing understand, higher contrast gives an "appearance" of additional sharpness.

And indeed that can make the non-ASPH lenses appear a bit more like ASPH lenses - at least for people who confuse appearance with reality.

Fortunately, it is easy to reduce that contrast in post-processing (even for all pictures globally, by saving presets in LR, ACR etc.) with a lower default contrast or higher shadow/highlight recovery settings. If that is what one wants.

The funny part is that if you go back and look at some of the early M10 comments, some claimed (or reported others claiming) that the M10 was less sharp, per pixel, than the M9 CCD.

Personally, I use either Mandler-era Leitz lenses (21, 28, 75, 135, sometimes 90) or C/V lenses replicating older Leitz designs (75 Heliar Classic f/1.8, 35 Nokton f/1.4) - and the M10 reveals their characters (good and bad) very accurately.

 

[steamboat]

On 3/31/2019 at 7:59 PM, TomB_tx said:

I’ve used Leica since 1968, and have never been concerned about the resale price, as I’ve never sold one. I buy to use them, not to resell. The one I used this weekend is my 1968 M4.

I kept my M9 when I got my M10 as it is still a great backup or 2nd body. I expect to keep using both as long as they work.

 

On 4/2/2019 at 7:14 AM, Paulus said:

And keep your camera for ever! Just like the Picasso which hangs about 26 kilometers from my house. It's not worth anything as long it is not sold. The devaluation ( or price increased ) begins the moment an item is sold. As long as you keep it. It will be "priceless. 

My M's  are priceless ( although not really for the insurance )

Agreed. I still have my first M2, Leicavit, 21mm f4 Super Ang. and 35mm f3.5 Summaron bought in 1966. I photographed Bobby Kennedy with it.  I've kept everything since except a collectors lens I dumped for an new M6. Buy, buy. Don't sell. No reason. At all. Good luck with your photography.

Edited April 25, 2019 by steamboat
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