The M10 massive loss in resell value unprecedented?

[M10Alpine]

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4 hours ago, 250swb said:

Have you ever considered the price depreciation of a car when you drive it off the forecourt? An average luxury car will go down in value 25% within the first 100 meters of leaving the showroom. A BMW 5 Series after three years will have depreciated by 50%. Is the market 'oversaturated' with BMW 5 Series, or is it simply the normal functioning of the market? 

So now you've brought up the question what do you suggest, that Leica stop making money? They protect your 'investment' for you? My thought is that I don't buy anything mass produced that I consider an investment, I know it will devalue, and my other thought is that I want Leica to make money so they can design and build the next camera in the line. 

Not at all - why would Leica stop making money? I want Leica to make as much money as possible and keep bringing new quirky products to the market. I'm all for capitalism, profits, and Leica feeding our GAS addiction.  

My questions is just if this drop is normal in each product cycle or if the M10 drop is exceptional or if the price dropp was the same Going from M8 to M9 to 240 - 

 

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[jaapv]

If you are an amateur the camera is written off as soon as you open the box. Any resale value will be a bonus, in the unlikely case you want to sell. If you are a professional, the camera is written off against the turnover it generates. Any resale value  after its economical lifespan is a bonus. in other words: this should be the least of your worries.

[mike3996]

3 hours ago, M10Alpine said:

Not at all - why would Leica stop making money? I want Leica to make as much money as possible and keep bringing new quirky products to the market. I'm all for capitalism, profits, and Leica feeding our GAS addiction.  

My questions is just if this drop is normal in each product cycle or if the M10 drop is exceptional or if the price dropp was the same Going from M8 to M9 to 240 - 

 

I see where you're coming from.

IIRC M8/M9 held their value a bit better (= they depreciated slower) than M240 which was a polarizing body with all its fancy video things and whatnot. We as a community suspected that it was the reason M240 dropped faster in value, but perhaps we can take the new data points into account and determine that it's just the way digital bodies are now treated: they just depreciate faster than M9.

 

I still think that as long the M9s don't start to drop dead en masse, they'll remain at around €2k and any newer bodies remain slightly above as they are compared against the M9 in technical merits. And it'll be a long time until you start to see M10's go for €2k used.

Edited April 2, 2019 by mike3996

[mdemeyer]

One thing that keeps used prices up are increases in new prices, which everyone complains about.

Hard to have your cake and eat it, too...

Edited April 2, 2019 by mdemeyer

[mujk]

I think that once the production backlog of a new model has been cleared, prices of used cameras will start to drop. The release of the next model will probably lower used camera prices some more, at least momentarily. Any significant quality problems, like the M9 sensor issue, will also affect prices. The M10 has not had any of these issues (yet).

The original price of the M9 was nearly 7k€. Mine was less than two years old and in excellent condition when I bought it used in 2012 for less than 4k€, about four months before the M240 was released. This is not that much different from the price trend for used M10s.

[xiaubauu2009]

Imagine those Leica S system owner. you will be offer 10~15% of your MRSP S006 or S2....

[pgk]

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Cameras are for taking photographs with. They all lose money. Their resale value is a massive variable and depends on the seller's ability to sell as much as anything else. You need to be able to afford to buy them but as soon as you start thinking of them in financial terms you are on a hiding to nothing IMO. Buy enjoy and sell when they are no longer used - if you are upgrading then you will take a loss. Upgrading now offers a very poor return, is possibly one way of putting it - which all manufacturers are aware of no doubt!

[xiaubauu2009]

39 minutes ago, pgk said:

Cameras are for taking photographs with. They all lose money. Their resale value is a massive variable and depends on the seller's ability to sell as much as anything else. You need to be able to afford to buy them but as soon as you start thinking of them in financial terms you are on a hiding to nothing IMO. Buy enjoy and sell when they are no longer used - if you are upgrading then you will take a loss. Upgrading now offers a very poor return, is possibly one way of putting it - which all manufacturers are aware of no doubt!

true true.

[bocaburger]

I bought one M240 pre-owned certified, the other ex-demo.  A quick search at the auction site completed/sold shows they're going for about a grand (each) less than I paid in 2014 and 2015.  I can live with that.  Not as nice as my 2 M4's I bought used in '70 and '71 that have been selling for the same range for the last 20 years.  The only Leica I lost a ton of money on was my M8, which coincidentally was the only one I bought new.

[Kwesi]

On 3/31/2019 at 6:26 PM, M10Alpine said:

I mean the M9 - 240 etc did the price tank as badly as with the M10?

I think the price drop of the 240 was the worst I've seen in digital M's. if you go through a dealer, you basically have to trade in 3 m240's to get 1 new M10

[adan]

7 hours ago, bocaburger said:

The only Leica I lost a ton of money on was my M8, which coincidentally was the only one I bought new.

Figure out how many exposures you made with the M8. (e.g. 20,000)

Divide by 36 (e.g. 555.55)

Add $15.95 (local price of a roll of the revived Ektachrome E100 film) to $8.00 (average price of processing a roll of E6).  Multiply that by previous result (e.g. ($15.95 + $8.00) x 555.55 = 13305.55)

Take that total and add it to what you got for your M8.

Compare to your M8 purchase price.

Smile!

 

[NZDavid]

Andy, those prices are cheap for film compared with New Zealand! Expect to pay $50 at least for film plus processing here! I love film, and still have many slides, but the economics of digital are undeniable. 

Value is not only monetary. If the camera still works, and still produces pictures you like, it is still of value.

For any digital product, I reckon that five years is a reasonable lifespan, although products are now maturing so should last longer. 

[adan]

Well, yes.

So far as I'm concerned the only value a camera has lies in the pictures you did, can, and will get from it. And that is true with either film or digital.

[leicabug]

10 hours ago, bocaburger said:

The only Leica I lost a ton of money on was my M8, which coincidentally was the only one I bought new.

I was an very early buyer of M8.  So early that Leica felt sorry for us and gave every one of us a 30% discount voucher on any Leica lens.  I used that to purchase a Noctilux for $2700 and change.  Early M8 had a lot of problems but Leica did the right thing to make us happy.

[rapids41]

M8 -> M9 price drop was high because the size of the sensor changed from 1.3 to 1.0.

I think M10 -> M11 will be the same than M240 -> M10.

A M9 with new sensor is better, because some people still like the ccd sensor and in my opinion the M9 is still the best looking Leica digital (I don't like the big screen of the M240 and M10).

[bocaburger]

12 hours ago, adan said:

Figure out how many exposures you made with the M8. (e.g. 20,000)

Divide by 36 (e.g. 555.55)

Add $15.95 (local price of a roll of the revived Ektachrome E100 film) to $8.00 (average price of processing a roll of E6).  Multiply that by previous result (e.g. ($15.95 + $8.00) x 555.55 = 13305.55)

Take that total and add it to what you got for your M8.

Compare to your M8 purchase price.

Smile!

 

All that math applies equally to the digital Leica's I did buy used and subsequently lost very little on.    Like with cars, the discipline to stay a generation behind has its economic rewards.  That has been easy for me with Leica digital because the image quality has improved only incrementally from the already-good M8, and if tech like high-ISO, AF, image stability etc were my priorities I wouldn't be a Leica guy in the first place. 

[simonr]

Leica 240's are well under 3000 euros in Finland now.

[Ko.Fe.]

By now M10 is just one from many digital M.

M8, M9 was different story. Nothing but Epson rd1 with outdated sensor was on the market.

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[Gavbo]

M8/M8.2 - My M8.2 still worth more or less the same as when I got mind used 2 years ago around $1200. Very capable B&W camera.

M9/M9-p/MM - The CCD appeal,  I recently sold an m9-p for the eqv of $4150, made around $900 in profit with 9 months of usage.

M240 - Probably the least special of all the Digital M's to date. Heavy, bulky, only expensive at the time only because it was the latest. Not much you can do if you currently have one of those.

Smart money is either M9/M9-p/MM (ccd replaced), they will only go up in value as the CCD appeal increase or a used M10 but sell before the M11 comes out.

 

[Paulus]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Gavbo:

M8/M8.2 - My M8.2 still worth more or less the same as when I got mind used 2 years ago around $1200. Very capable B&W camera.

M9/M9-p/MM - The CCD appeal,  I recently sold an m9-p for the eqv of $4150, made around $900 in profit with 9 months of usage.

M240 - Probably the least special of all the Digital M's to date. Heavy, bulky, only expensive at the time only because it was the latest. Not much you can do if you currently have one of those.

Smart money is either M9/M9-p/MM (ccd replaced), they will only go up in value as the CCD appeal increase or a used M10 but sell before the M11 comes out.

 

I wonder if you say this from your own experience. It's hard to believe that you find the M 240 " the least special " . It's IMHO , and I have used them all and still do, the most mature camera of the M's in that time. Of course the M 10 is less bulky, but that doesn't make the M 240 not a special camera today and certainly not the moment it appeared. It was worth the money I payed for it and I will not sell it after the 5 years of daily use. I use the M 10 and the M 240 next to each other now and although the M 240 is thicker, one can use them without hesitation next to another.