The M10 massive loss in resell value unprecedented?

[M10Alpine]

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My take is that the M10 market is vastly oversaturated - looks like an almost new M10 is selling for about 5000€ - a very nice M10 that is two years might sell for just above 4000€. Is this common ? I mean the M9 - 240 etc did the price tank as badly as with the M10? Is Leica releasing too many editions too fast? 

 

Thoughts? 

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[Peter Kilmister]

All cameras, especially digital, lose value very quickly. Lenses keep their value. Best advice is to get the digital camera best suited to your needs, probably second hand, and keep it for years.

All Leica M cameras are built so well that they will survive for years. It is only main changes, like the quiet shutter on the M10-P,  that change the market.

IMO, if an M11 comes out soon then it will probably have more than 24MP sensitivity. I can't see the point. 24 MP is perfect unless you know something I don't.

[a.noctilux]

Good news for second hand M10 buyers.

Bad news for M10 owners who want to "upgrade" or just sell (not good idea).

This trend will go worse 😈 or better in near future 😇.

[M10Alpine]

32 minutes ago, Peter Kilmister said:

All cameras, especially digital, lose value very quickly. Lenses keep their value. Best advice is to get the digital camera best suited to your needs, probably second hand, and keep it for years.

All Leica M cameras are built so well that they will survive for years. It is only main changes, like the quiet shutter on the M10-P,  that change the market.

IMO, if an M11 comes out soon then it will probably have more than 24MP sensitivity. I can't see the point. 24 MP is perfect unless you know something I don't.

 

I understand the logics of what you say, its obvious, my question is if this is a "new" trend or if the M9 - M240 second hand price curve looked the same? 

[M10Alpine]

17 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Good news for second hand M10 buyers.

Bad news for M10 owners who want to "upgrade" or just sell (not good idea).

This trend will go worse 😈 or better in near future 😇.

 

I suspect you are right 

[DirkR440]

I don't have the numbers in my head but I remember that when the M240 came to the market there has been a huge waiting list. At that time I had to make a decision to buy an M9-P or wait a year for an M240. I decided to go for the M9-P and I think that was the reason why there was not a massive price drop for the M9 when the M240 come out. And also before when the M9-P was released, this was not comparable to the difference from the M10 to the M10-P. Just the glas changed. About the same story for the M240 and M240P. But when the M10-P was released and also the M10-D came to the market, I think more people did the switch and also new buyers either go for the P or D model now. As a.noctilux said before, I think it is a good time if you want to buy a second hand M10.

[a.noctilux]

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My observation in France, Leica market late last year to now :

- the Q2 can change the M10 "value" as more people wants more pixels

- M10-D, M10-P "replace" the M10 in some cases = many M10 second hand

- in many shops, as soon as M10 "second hand" is available, it's sold in couple of days, so this means the "value" is in the right side for second hand M10 user

- in same shops, so many units of M240 family (M, M-P, 246, 262) stay unsold for long (very long), I think that their "sh values" are not "right" for sh user

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by a.noctilux

[TomB_tx]

I’ve used Leica since 1968, and have never been concerned about the resale price, as I’ve never sold one. I buy to use them, not to resell. The one I used this weekend is my 1968 M4.

I kept my M9 when I got my M10 as it is still a great backup or 2nd body. I expect to keep using both as long as they work.

[Daedalus2000]

The second hand market is a bit complicated and it depends on many things including the specific model perception, exchange rates, changes in the price over the years, tax etc. For example the second hand prices for M9s and M240s are very close these days which was unexpected, but the M9 (with new sensor) keeps its value well because it is such a special camera.

For the M10 specifically in the UK, I think the original price was less than it is now and the tax here is 20%, so for a mint one I would expect not to have to pay a really good portion of the tax, so I would expect an immediate drop of around 10% to 20% and for an older one even more given the tax, the age of the camera and the original price that the original owner paid for it.

As a general observation, I would say that the M10 prices dropped faster than I expected, but not by much more. Also, we need to take into account the quality of new cameras that appeared during the M10 era like the medium format cameras (Fujifil/X1D), the Sony A7RIII etc etc, which I am sure had an effect as well.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Daedalus2000

[M10Alpine]

8 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

My observation in France, Leica market late last year to now :

- the Q2 can change the M10 "value" as more people wants more pixels

- M10-D, M10-P "replace" the M10 in some cases = many M10 second hand

- in many shops, as soon as M10 "second hand" is available, it's sold in couple of days, so this means the "value" is in the right side for second hand M10 user

- in same shops, so many units of M240 family (M, M-P, 246, 262) stay unsold for long (very long), I think that their "sh values" are not "right" for sh user

 

Thanks - interesting and I agree

[M10Alpine]

As Daedalus2000 points out, the dropp in the price went faster than I had expected. I think that's spot on. I had a M246 went to M10 and on to M10-D. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by M10Alpine

[budjames]

Seems like Leica is not immune to the rapid depreciation of digital camera bodies. This should be no surprise as product obsolescence and lower values is a fact of our digital life. 

At least Leica lenses continue to maintain good resale value, especially since Leica raised the price of new lenses last year.

I'm really enjoying my M10 and Leica lenses so I'm not thinking of resale values right now. Another benefit of Leica's slow product release history is that "GAS" is kept to a minimum. This is not the case with Sony or other manufacturers whose camera body refresh cycle is almost continuous.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[0luke1]

A digital camera is a consumable. Leica lenses are not.  

If I didn’t already have a M10, I’d buy a used one. We’re probably at the apex of the price/value/use curve. 

 

[Peter Zapp]

I noticed asking prices second hand online are not much below dealers' street prices.

Digital Leica bodies depreciate faster than film bodies, but please calculate against cost for film and laboratory. They depreciate slower than the competition from Asia. The M9 still has a fan base willing to accept its quirks against more expensive, current models.

Leica M film bodies survive their first owners,  but the digital bodies will become redundant or unrepairable earlier. Sadly there is no way to upgrade the digital innards without trashing the optical and mechanical parts. They represent a substantial part of the camera's value and would survive there first owner, too.

[Paulus]

But film body did depreciate also very much. Try selling a MP a la carte a year after you bought it for €4300,- It will sell for €3000,-/€2500,-  A M7 Leica sell for even less. 

 

But try to keep them for 10 years, then you can sell them for the price you bought it every time. A digital not. That's the real difference between digital an manual. 

 

Not only second hand digitals depreciate, the new ones also. In 2017 a M10 was € 6750,- nowadays a new one about € 6000,- A new M 10p ( €7500) will cost you €6600/6700 these days if you trade sharply. 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Paulus

[M10Alpine]

2 hours ago, Paulus said:

But film body did depreciate also very much. Try selling a MP a la carte a year after you bought it for €4300,- It will sell for €3000,-/€2500,-  A M7 Leica sell for even less. 

 

But try to keep them for 10 years, then you can sell them for the price you bought it every time. A digital not. That's the real difference between digital an manual. 

 

Not only second hand digitals depreciate, the new ones also. In 2017 a M10 was € 6750,- nowadays a new one about € 6000,- A new M 10p ( €7500) will cost you €6600/6700 these days if you trade sharply. 

 

 

I have three Leica film bodys I ❤️ - I will never sell two of them. Having two M7's is a bit excessive - accidental... 

The lenses are probably better than currency or at least as good, at least that's what we tell our wifes. 

M10 online go for about 4300€ top now. M240 just under 3000€ if I do a guesstimate. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by M10Alpine

[Kwesi]

9 hours ago, 0luke1 said:

A digital camera is a consumable. Leica lenses are not.  

If I didn’t already have a M10, I’d buy a used one. We’re probably at the apex of the price/value/use curve. 

 

My guess is that we are not quite the apex of the price/value/use curve yet. We should be there when the SL2 arrives.

[250swb]

On 3/31/2019 at 11:26 PM, M10Alpine said:

My take is that the M10 market is vastly oversaturated - looks like an almost new M10 is selling for about 5000€ - a very nice M10 that is two years might sell for just above 4000€. Is this common ?

 

Thoughts?

Have you ever considered the price depreciation of a car when you drive it off the forecourt? An average luxury car will go down in value 25% within the first 100 meters of leaving the showroom. A BMW 5 Series after three years will have depreciated by 50%. Is the market 'oversaturated' with BMW 5 Series, or is it simply the normal functioning of the market? 

So now you've brought up the question what do you suggest, that Leica stop making money? They protect your 'investment' for you? My thought is that I don't buy anything mass produced that I consider an investment, I know it will devalue, and my other thought is that I want Leica to make money so they can design and build the next camera in the line. 

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[earleygallery]

I don't understand all these threads on the forum about price depreciation of new Leica's. 

Anything secondhand is going to be worth less than it was new, with very few exceptions for some hard to get stuff. But anyway, who buys a digital camera today with a mind as to what it's going to be worth in X years time? A digital camera is really a 'consumable' item, buy it to use it! The more use you get out of it, the less it costs in a price per photo basis! 

If depreciation is a concern the obvious thing is to buy used instead, and suffer less depreciation when you sell that.

 

 

[Paulus]

And keep your camera for ever! Just like the Picasso which hangs about 26 kilometers from my house. It's not worth anything as long it is not sold. The devaluation ( or price increased ) begins the moment an item is sold. As long as you keep it. It will be "priceless. 

My M's  are priceless ( although not really for the insurance )